still sailing this week, crusing in the Baltic Sea with the family. Yes I will contact ILCA. Have a few open doors as a member (youth responsible) of the Swedish Laserassociation.
As far as I now: PTS = scoring + N points whatever the jury decide… but max points + 1 in biggest fleet/flight and is descardable.
Yes It would be great to hav SW running smoothly for Lasers Champs too (European and world).
I think PTS is a normal penalty (hence discardable score) but the calculation is different from standard penalties of RRS (rounded tu the higher unit instead of closest unit). We have just to write the formula.
To be confirmed
Note, I'm now sailing the Micro Class Worlds and have very little time to read my mails, but I have the softawre and files of the Europeans 2008, probably I find the method we used in ZW-scoring.
Thanks for the pointers to additional issues. Next year there are 4 Laser events being held in the UK:
Radial Worlds Women
Radial Worlds
Laser Worlds
Laser Masters Worlds
The clubs that are hosting these are used to Sailwave and therefore likely to use Sailwave to produce the results. I will try and work with Colin to sort out the areas that have caused Anders a few problems. I will go get the SI's you mentioned but having looked at the SI's for the Laser Europeans there are definitions missing as how in particular how the the PTS code is to be used to be used and as I said previously if it can be discarded. Custom & practice appear to show that the PTS is part of a race score and not an event penalty, but so far I have not seen this written explicitly.
Kind regards,
Huw
Philippe DE TROY wrote:
Huw,
As I remember for Europeans last year, there was a difference in rounding the percentage penalties, and/or the questio of ARB and PTS, best have a copy of the standard SI for Worlds and Continentals from the Laser Class Web site.
We scored with the Dutch ZW-scoring, and it was the same prblem the Laser template didn't exist, but a utch judge was part of the development team of ZW and could help us making the configuration.
In my opinion, we should be able to propose a tailor-made solution, as their usual software is less popular in most parts of the World.
Agree but still have to get Colin to cope with a couple of things like the Laser use of PTS. However the Laser class need to clarify if the points for the infractions (Signing in/out and sailing in course area after finishing) are to be part of the race result as Anders configured and able to be discarded or they are penalty points that are added to the series scores as we use frequently at Junior & Youth events here in the UK.
Kind regards,
Huw
Philippe DE TROY wrote:
Anyway, if we want to conquer the World, we should propose a pre§configured solution for this Laser stuff...
The Sailors were penalized for various things. Example: 2 pts for crossing a racing field after finnish. 20 pts for not signing out and in and I think I had something else to... Allways after a jury decision.
Reading through your information on this event and the SI's the only reference I can find in the SI's for PTS is in Rule 1
1.3 Add to rule RRS A11: ARB means scoring penalty after arbitration, PTS scoring penalty for a yellow*
flag after finish.*
First of all it has been a great pleasure to score the Laser Europeans. Imagine 120+ lasers crossing the Finnish line in less than 6 minutes I probably would qualify as a sports commentator ;-)
It has not been a walk in the park scoring in SW but I have promised ILCA a guideline using the software. ILCA is preferring another Dutch software but is aware of the widely spread using of SW.
Setting up the regatta was very easy All competitor information was delivered by ILCA. We only had to check the sailors and sailnumbers after registration. We had two courses Seniors and Youth. I was taking care of the Youth.
I made the flight assignments. It was up to me to decide how. I sorted Nat and SailNo and gave them flights Yellow and Red. The Flights changed every day in the qualifying serie (8 races in 4 days) based on the overall result. Finals (Gold and Silver) was on the 2 last days, F1-F4. The flightassignment was done just before 20.00 regardless of open protest decisions or other unknown results. It all went OK.
But: ILCA has got different penalty system in the SI, ARB and PTS. ARB is a percentage penalty based on the biggest Fleet/Flight No problem the SI is clear about this and is handled by SW. PTS is a little bit unusual for me. Sailors could have penalty points added to the score and it could vary from 2, 8 10, 20 or whatever the decision would say. A sailor could even get more then one PTS in the same race. This we need in SW PTS: Scoring points + N where N is set by hand. So if anyone above the PTS sailor is given for an example DNE the PTS sailor should have one place better when rescoring and the penalty score should follow. Now it was tricky to get it right.
But my biggest nightmare was when the finals were assigned and a review of score in the qualifying races came up SW couldnt change the results The only thing to do was copying all to excel and save the final races that was finished. Clear the final results, changing the wrong ones in the qualifications, rescore and importing results from CSV!
The organisers were very happy having me sorting out the problem. They wouldnt made it without my help Yes Im proud using SW.
I am attaching the final Youthfiles for further testing Try changing one PTS in the Q and rescore.
At last. Flightassignments is very hard to understand for normal users so I suggest the Flights and the flightassignments is incorporated in Fleets instead as most of Sis that I have read is just using the word Fleet but in Sailwave its almost always meaning flights.
Regards
Anders Landenstad
Proud SW-scorer
As a scorer I would be questioning the Jury for a clear definition of what PTS meant and how it was to be applied, also as a competitor. Was there a Change to SI posted explaining exactly what PTS was given for and its application? I have looked at the event website and cannot find anything.
Kind regards,
Huw
Anders Landenstad (juniorsegling.se) wrote:
Hi Anders,
Thanks for the prompt reply, it clarifies the problems you had.
Here in the UK in some events we do not include these penalty points as part of the race results, i.e . a score directly related to a race. We use a separate field against a competitor which is available on the ‘Audit’ tab of the competitor information, it is labelled Series penalty points. Colin included it as parents and competitors at Junior and Youth events here in the UK were getting confused when I was using a dummy race to record things like signing in/out penalties. It also with a dummy race caused problems with discard profile and having to remember to make it, the dummy race, non-discardable.
Having looked through your .BLW file I notice that the code PTS could be discard, so in my view this does not cause the competitor to think about the reason why they have been penalised and stop. Here in the UK when sign in/out penalties are given they are not discardable so the solution Colin came up with, described above, works because points accumulated in the 'Series penalty points' field are added to the series score.
However, it would be good if Colin could provide greater flexibility in the use of the 'Series penalty points' field by allowing a comma separated string of codes for which points can be set up in the same or similar way that scoring codes are done (perhaps using the scoring code facility and allowing the code to to be tagged as for use only with the 'Series penalty points' field). Additionally, it would be good if it could include some way of recording against which race a particular code was applied and allow for multiple such penalties per race.
First of all it has been a great pleasure to score the Laser Europeans. Imagine 120+ lasers crossing the Finnish line in less than 6 minutes – I probably would qualify as a sports commentator ;-)
It has not been “a walk in the park” scoring in SW but I have promised ILCA a guideline using the software. ILCA is preferring another “Dutch” software but is aware of the widely spread using of SW.
Setting up the regatta was very easy – All competitor information was delivered by ILCA. We “only” had to check the sailors and sailnumbers after registration. We had two courses Seniors and Youth. I was taking care of the Youth.
I made the flight assignments. It was up to me to decide how. I sorted Nat and SailNo and gave them flights Yellow and Red. The Flights changed every day in the qualifying serie (8 races in 4 days) based on the overall result. Finals (Gold and Silver) was on the 2 last days, F1-F4. The flightassignment was done just before 20.00 regardless of open protest decisions or other “unknown” results. It all went OK.
But: ILCA has got different penalty system in the SI, ARB and PTS. ARB is a percentage penalty based on the biggest “Fleet/Flight” – No problem the SI is clear about this and is handled by SW. PTS is a little bit unusual for me. Sailors could have penalty points added to the score and it could vary from 2, 8 10, 20 or whatever the decision would say. A sailor could even get more then one PTS in the same race. This we need in SW – PTS: Scoring points + N where N is set by hand. So if anyone above the “PTS” sailor is given for an example DNE the “PTS” sailor should have one place better when rescoring and the penalty score should follow. Now it was tricky to get it right.
But my biggest “nightmare” was when the finals were assigned and a review of score in the qualifying races came up – SW couldn’t change the results – The only thing to do was copying all to excel and save the final races that was finished. Clear the final results, changing the “wrong” ones in the qualifications, rescore and importing results from CSV!
The organisers were very happy having me sorting out the problem. They wouldn’t made it without my help – Yes I’m proud using SW.
I am attaching the final Youthfiles for further testing – Try changing one PTS in the Q and rescore.
At last. Flightassignments is very hard to understand for “normal users” so I suggest the Flights and the flightassignments is incorporated in Fleets instead as most of Sis that I have read is just using the word Fleet but in Sailwave it’s almost always meaning flights.
Yes, that might do the trick,but not… If you recalculate you will see that Q-series is calculated wrong. As i remembered a DNF/DSQ/BFD… would get 35 instead of 62.
First of all it has been a great pleasure to score the Laser Europeans. Imagine 120+ lasers crossing the Finnish line in less than 6 minutes I probably would qualify as a sports commentator ;-)
It has not been a walk in the park scoring in SW but I have promised ILCA a guideline using the software. ILCA is preferring another Dutch software but is aware of the widely spread using of SW.
Setting up the regatta was very easy All competitor information was delivered by ILCA. We only had to check the sailors and sailnumbers after registration. We had two courses Seniors and Youth. I was taking care of the Youth.
I made the flight assignments. It was up to me to decide how. I sorted Nat and SailNo and gave them flights Yellow and Red. The Flights changed every day in the qualifying serie (8 races in 4 days) based on the overall result. Finals (Gold and Silver) was on the 2 last days, F1-F4. The flightassignment was done just before 20.00 regardless of open protest decisions or other unknown results. It all went OK.
But: ILCA has got different penalty system in the SI, ARB and PTS. ARB is a percentage penalty based on the biggest Fleet/Flight No problem the SI is clear about this and is handled by SW. PTS is a little bit unusual for me. Sailors could have penalty points added to the score and it could vary from 2, 8 10, 20 or whatever the decision would say. A sailor could even get more then one PTS in the same race. This we need in SW PTS: Scoring points + N where N is set by hand. So if anyone above the PTS sailor is given for an example DNE the PTS sailor should have one place better when rescoring and the penalty score should follow. Now it was tricky to get it right.
But my biggest nightmare was when the finals were assigned and a review of score in the qualifying races came up SW couldnt change the results The only thing to do was copying all to excel and save the final races that was finished. Clear the final results, changing the wrong ones in the qualifications, rescore and importing results from CSV!
The organisers were very happy having me sorting out the problem. They wouldnt made it without my help Yes Im proud using SW.
I am attaching the final Youthfiles for further testing Try changing one PTS in the Q and rescore.
At last. Flightassignments is very hard to understand for normal users so I suggest the Flights and the flightassignments is incorporated in Fleets instead as most of Sis that I have read is just using the word Fleet but in Sailwave its almost always meaning flights.
Regards
Anders Landenstad
Proud SW-scorer
Anders.
Just been looking at the Sailwave file you attached. With regards to your 'nightmare ’ and changing a Q-series results after it seems that an F-Series had been sailed, are you aware of the check box labelled ‘Do not recalculate qualifying race points when at least one finals race has been sailed’ on the ‘App LE Addendum C’ tab of the Edit Scoring System window. I think this by default is ticked, but if taken off I think it would have solved your 'nightmare '. I haven’t tried it out yet.
I remember we had a log book of all actions made on the files in 2008, and we made a lot of backups, at least three per day, so when something went wrong (and it did, despite the fact the we used the preferred software of the Laser Class), it was alwais possible to go back to the last universally accepted version, and make all subsequent actions until it went wrong, then we made a new backup and explored several options for the following steps…
Yes, that might do the trick,but not… If you recalculate you will see that Q-series is calculated wrong. As i remembered a DNF/DSQ/BFD… would get 35 instead of 62.
First of all it has been a great pleasure to score the Laser Europeans. Imagine 120+ lasers crossing the Finnish line in less than 6 minutes I probably would qualify as a sports commentator ;-)
It has not been a walk in the park scoring in SW but I have promised ILCA a guideline using the software. ILCA is preferring another Dutch software but is aware of the widely spread using of SW.
Setting up the regatta was very easy All competitor information was delivered by ILCA. We only had to check the sailors and sailnumbers after registration. We had two courses Seniors and Youth. I was taking care of the Youth.
I made the flight assignments. It was up to me to decide how. I sorted Nat and SailNo and gave them flights Yellow and Red. The Flights changed every day in the qualifying serie (8 races in 4 days) based on the overall result. Finals (Gold and Silver) was on the 2 last days, F1-F4. The flightassignment was done just before 20.00 regardless of open protest decisions or other unknown results. It all went OK.
But: ILCA has got different penalty system in the SI, ARB and PTS. ARB is a percentage penalty based on the biggest Fleet/Flight No problem the SI is clear about this and is handled by SW. PTS is a little bit unusual for me. Sailors could have penalty points added to the score and it could vary from 2, 8 10, 20 or whatever the decision would say. A sailor could even get more then one PTS in the same race. This we need in SW PTS: Scoring points + N where N is set by hand. So if anyone above the PTS sailor is given for an example DNE the PTS sailor should have one place better when rescoring and the penalty score should follow. Now it was tricky to get it right.
But my biggest nightmare was when the finals were assigned and a review of score in the qualifying races came up SW couldnt change the results The only thing to do was copying all to excel and save the final races that was finished. Clear the final results, changing the wrong ones in the qualifications, rescore and importing results from CSV!
The organisers were very happy having me sorting out the problem. They wouldnt made it without my help Yes Im proud using SW.
I am attaching the final Youthfiles for further testing Try changing one PTS in the Q and rescore.
At last. Flightassignments is very hard to understand for normal users so I suggest the Flights and the flightassignments is incorporated in Fleets instead as most of Sis that I have read is just using the word Fleet but in Sailwave its almost always meaning flights.
Regards
Anders Landenstad
Proud SW-scorer
Anders.
Just been looking at the Sailwave file you attached. With regards to your 'nightmare ’ and changing a Q-series results after it seems that an F-Series had been sailed, are you aware of the check box labelled ‘Do not recalculate qualifying race points when at least one finals race has been sailed’ on the ‘App LE Addendum C’ tab of the Edit Scoring System window. I think this by default is ticked, but if taken off I think it would have solved your 'nightmare '. I haven’t tried it out yet.
