[sailwave] US Opti red white and blue fleet scoring

Hi Mark
Gone back to SUG so that others can see.

I (and perhaps others) may have misinterpreted your query.
Opis & many other big fleets have gone over to racing in flights.
Results of the Red & Green 'flight race' are added to the results of the Blue & Yellow 'flight race'
to produce an overall regatta race. i.e the race has two 1sts, 2nds, 3rds etc

From you email, you seem to be suggesting that all boats (red, blue & white) sail against each other
in one mass start.
When the regatta has ended, PRIZES are then awarded to the highest x boats from each fleet.
I presume fleets are based upon ability, age or some other criteria.

If I have arrived at the correct conclusion then a solution to your problem may be as below:
- Sort your final results by the column containing the fleet indentity
- Hold down the Control key then do a secondary sort on the rank column
If required:
- 'Seed' a column for each fleet in turn (this will enter a 'fleet' position)
Publish the overall series in whatever format you require
(Results will be published as they appear on the screen)

I have attached a copy of a regatta which I ran last year so that you can play with sorting,
publishing, seeding etc

Is this what you were looking for???

I did try to set up a 'top x' listing using the Prizes option but this only automatically chooses
the best from a range of competitors (did this not used to have a wider range of finishers than just
best???)

Re your second question
I have used a high point system of number of boats beat (ignoring divided by) with great success in
a National ranking series for one design fleets.
The benefit of this is that if a boat finishes 1st in a 30 boat regatta, it gains more points than
winning a 10 boat regatta.
There are many mathematicians who will argue 'coefficient this' & 'standard deviation that' but a
simple boats beat + 1 is something that competitors can understand.
Perhaps the argument is to
retain the first part of your sentence (boats beat + 1) & delete the last bit (divided by.....)

Let me know if you need any more help

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Schneider [mailto:mschneid@msn.com]
Sent: 10 January 2006 20:05
To: rat@attat.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] US Opti red white and blue fleet scoring

Hi Ralph

The CBYRA region is attemtping to mandate the use of Javascore this season.
I discovered that Sailwave could not quickly implement the following.

"Overall Scoring is USODA Policy

Overal scoring is USODA policy., It determines places within the red, blue,
and white fleets simply by looking at the overall results using blue fleet
as and eaxample, to determin 1st through 5th place in blue fleet using
overall socoring, you simply run down the overall list of finisher and look
for the first blue fleeter, the second blue fleeter etc. This gives you the
order of finihser in the blue fleet and awards are then made using this
list:

... with overall scoring the awards made to blue fleeters are exactly the
same as the order in which they finished in the overall results.

... all regatta organizers are urged to use this scoring method rather then
fleet scoring when calculating standings in red white and blue fleets.

Java score has a check box which rescores the overall standings into Overall
fleet standings.

Ander's did not say much that helped me here. I haven't puzzled over it yet
though either. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I have a second question

They also use a high point calculaton that does not make sense to me. Its
something like number of boats beaten + 1 divided by the number of boats
that you could have beaten + 1.

This is just a linear calculation Does it really do a good job of scoring a
region wide one design fleet
5 or more events qualify you for high point.

They find that the kids don't pay much attention to this result and believe
that if they publish the high point standings every week that the kids will
be interested. I think they are missing something but can''t put it into
words. I would think that Rinderlee or the Chipstead system would be far
supperior and the table would allow a kid to figure ... what score they need
to move up. What argument should I make to them.

Thanks
Mark

Hi Ralph

I (and perhaps others) may have misinterpreted your query.

Opis & many other big fleets have gone over to racing in flights.

Results of the Red & Green 'flight race' are added to the results of the Blue & Yellow 'flight race'

to produce an overall regatta race. i.e the race has two 1sts, 2nds, 3rds etc

From you email, you seem to be suggesting that all boats (red, blue & white) sail against each other

in one mass start.

When the regatta has ended, PRIZES are then awarded to the highest x boats from each fleet.

I presume fleets are based upon ability, age or some other criteria.

Yes. They are sorted by age. red = 13 to 15, blue = 11-12 and so on.
They publish two arguments for "Overall Scoring" as 1) easier for the competitors to understand and the scorekeeper to create. 2) the "arithemetical anomolies" are elimanted so that you don't change relative ranking in the red fleet scoring compared to the overall scoring.

If I have arrived at the correct conclusion then a solution to your problem may be as below:

- Sort your final results by the column containing the fleet indentity

- Hold down the Control key then do a secondary sort on the rank column

If required:

- 'Seed' a column for each fleet in turn (this will enter a 'fleet' position)

MS Yes, this worked. You just have to run the seeding process seperately for each fleet. A total of three times.

Publish the overall series in whatever format you require

(Results will be published as they appear on the screen)

I have attached a copy of a regatta which I ran last year so that you can play with sorting,

publishing, seeding etc

Is this what you were looking for???

Perfect.

As a note to Colin, Youth Sailing directors may not have the skills to follow this procedure and a button enabling "Overall Scoring" might be appropriate.

I did try to set up a 'top x' listing using the Prizes option but this only automatically chooses

the best from a range of competitors (did this not used to have a wider range of finishers than just

best???)

Re your second question

I have used a high point system of number of boats beat (ignoring divided by) with great success in

a National ranking series for one design fleets.

The benefit of this is that if a boat finishes 1st in a 30 boat regatta, it gains more points than

winning a 10 boat regatta.

There are many mathematicians who will argue 'coefficient this' & 'standard deviation that' but a

simple boats beat + 1 is something that competitors can understand.

Perhaps the argument is to

retain the first part of your sentence (boats beat + 1) & delete the last bit (divided by.....)

Let me know if you need any more help

Thanks Again
Mark

···

-----

From: Mark Schneider [mailto:mschneid@msn.com]

Sent: 10 January 2006 20:05

To: rat@attat.com

Subject: RE: [sailwave] US Opti red white and blue fleet scoring

Hi Ralph

The CBYRA region is attemtping to mandate the use of Javascore this season.

I discovered that Sailwave could not quickly implement the following.

"Overall Scoring is USODA Policy

Overal scoring is USODA policy.,� It determines places within the red, blue,

and white fleets simply by looking at the overall results using blue fleet

as and� eaxample, to determin 1st through 5th place in blue fleet using

overall socoring, you simply run down the overall list of finisher and look

for the first blue fleeter, the second blue fleeter etc.� This gives you the

order of finihser in the blue fleet and awards are then made using this

list:

... with overall scoring the awards made to blue fleeters are exactly the

same as the order in which they finished in the overall results.

... all regatta organizers are urged to use this scoring method rather then

fleet scoring when calculating standings in red white and blue fleets.

Java score has a check box which rescores the overall standings into Overall

fleet standings.

Ander's did not say much that helped me here.� I haven't puzzled over it yet

though either.� Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I have a second question

They also use a high point calculaton that does not make sense to me.� Its

something like number of boats beaten + 1 divided by the number of boats

that you could have beaten + 1.

This is just a linear calculation Does it really do a good job of scoring a

region wide one design fleet

5 or more events qualify you for high point.

They find that the kids don't pay much attention to this result and believe

that if they publish the high point standings every week that the kids will

be interested.� I think they are missing something but can''t put it into

words.� I would think that Rinderlee or the Chipstead system would be far

supperior and the table would allow a kid to figure ... what score they need

to move up.� What argument should I make to them.

Thanks

Mark

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Hi Ralph,

Your interpetation is very close to right!

Optis are divided into four fleets. Red, White and Blue are actaully age groups. Green is a novice fleet.

In large events, such as the 2004 US Nationals that I scored, Green Fleet sailed on it's own course with it's own committee boat and chase boats.

The "Championship" Fleet is divided into flights. Each flight is a mix of Red, White, and Blue age groups (there were 8 flights for the 2004 Nationals). The flights were given color designations (for the 2004 US Nationals, corresponding to the available color streamers)

A "race" consists of several seperate starts, with two flights sailing (for the 2004 Nationals, there were four starts per race). In the next race, the flights are shifted to sail against a different flight. Ideally, enough races are sailed so that each flight has sailed against all the other flights, a "round robin". At the 2004 Nationals, two round robins were sailed. .

So - indeed a "race" will have multiple 1sts, 2nds, etc.

That program I mentioned, St. Pete Scorer for Optis, is set up specifically to deal with this. It can automatically set up the flights and then score both overall and by age group. For the second round robin, the flights COULD have been re-seeded by St. Pete's, but the regatta committee decided this would have been confusing!

But, as I mentioned, St. Pete's really bogged down with an overall fleet of 400+ boats! If I can find the back up CD I burned of the files, I might try to see how Sailwave handles it (my PS's hard drive died, so can't get the files there!)

Regards,
Al Guardino
Bellport Bay Yacht Club, Great South Bay Yacht Racing Association
New York

···

Hi Mark
Gone back to SUG so that others can see.

I (and perhaps others) may have misinterpreted your query.
Opis & many other big fleets have gone over to racing in flights.
Results of the Red & Green 'flight race' are added to the results of the Blue & Yellow 'flight race'
to produce an overall regatta race. i.e the race has two 1sts, 2nds, 3rds etc

From you email, you seem to be suggesting that all boats (red, blue & white) sail against each other

in one mass start.
When the regatta has ended, PRIZES are then awarded to the highest x boats from each fleet.
I presume fleets are based upon ability, age or some other criteria.

If I have arrived at the correct conclusion then a solution to your problem may be as below:
- Sort your final results by the column containing the fleet indentity
- Hold down the Control key then do a secondary sort on the rank column
If required:
- 'Seed' a column for each fleet in turn (this will enter a 'fleet' position)
Publish the overall series in whatever format you require
(Results will be published as they appear on the screen)

I have attached a copy of a regatta which I ran last year so that you can play with sorting,
publishing, seeding etc

Is this what you were looking for???

I did try to set up a 'top x' listing using the Prizes option but this only automatically chooses
the best from a range of competitors (did this not used to have a wider range of finishers than just
best???)

Re your second question
I have used a high point system of number of boats beat (ignoring divided by) with great success in
a National ranking series for one design fleets.
The benefit of this is that if a boat finishes 1st in a 30 boat regatta, it gains more points than
winning a 10 boat regatta.
There are many mathematicians who will argue 'coefficient this' & 'standard deviation that' but a
simple boats beat + 1 is something that competitors can understand.
Perhaps the argument is to
retain the first part of your sentence (boats beat + 1) & delete the last bit (divided by.....)

Let me know if you need any more help

Regards
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Schneider [mailto:mschneid@msn.com]
Sent: 10 January 2006 20:05
To: rat@attat.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] US Opti red white and blue fleet scoring

Hi Ralph

The CBYRA region is attemtping to mandate the use of Javascore this season.
I discovered that Sailwave could not quickly implement the following.

"Overall Scoring is USODA Policy

Overal scoring is USODA policy., It determines places within the red, blue,
and white fleets simply by looking at the overall results using blue fleet
as and eaxample, to determin 1st through 5th place in blue fleet using
overall socoring, you simply run down the overall list of finisher and look
for the first blue fleeter, the second blue fleeter etc. This gives you the
order of finihser in the blue fleet and awards are then made using this
list:

... with overall scoring the awards made to blue fleeters are exactly the
same as the order in which they finished in the overall results.

... all regatta organizers are urged to use this scoring method rather then
fleet scoring when calculating standings in red white and blue fleets.

Java score has a check box which rescores the overall standings into Overall
fleet standings.

Ander's did not say much that helped me here. I haven't puzzled over it yet
though either. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I have a second question

They also use a high point calculaton that does not make sense to me. Its
something like number of boats beaten + 1 divided by the number of boats
that you could have beaten + 1.

This is just a linear calculation Does it really do a good job of scoring a
region wide one design fleet
5 or more events qualify you for high point.

They find that the kids don't pay much attention to this result and believe
that if they publish the high point standings every week that the kids will
be interested. I think they are missing something but can''t put it into
words. I would think that Rinderlee or the Chipstead system would be far
supperior and the table would allow a kid to figure ... what score they need
to move up. What argument should I make to them.

Thanks
Mark

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

On-Line Sailwave help...
http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links

Hi Al

SW now does everything that the St Pete Scorer does :slight_smile:
The sample file I attached was for 132 boats sailing in flights.
Sailors kept the same flight throughout the regatta & the flights swapped round for each race

If you can find your CD & covert the data into csv files, SW imports really well

Although SW has a seeding option, I have found that classes tend to have their own system seeding.
So it is easier to ask classes to set up competitors in Excel, decided their flights & then I can
import the file into SW.

SW is really good now but unfortunately, for those who have jumped from 1.57 to 1.8/9 the old
favourites have not gone, they have just moved to a better home

SUG has gone quiet recently but suspect that there may be lots of 'upgraders' asking "where is
....???"

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Alphonse P. Guardino
Sent: 11 January 2006 03:20
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] US Opti red white and blue fleet scoring

Hi Ralph,

Your interpetation is very close to right!

Optis are divided into four fleets. Red, White and Blue are actaully
age groups. Green is a novice fleet.

In large events, such as the 2004 US Nationals that I scored, Green
Fleet sailed on it's own course with it's own committee boat and chase
boats.

The "Championship" Fleet is divided into flights. Each flight is a mix
of Red, White, and Blue age groups (there were 8 flights for the 2004
Nationals). The flights were given color designations (for the 2004 US
Nationals, corresponding to the available color streamers)

A "race" consists of several seperate starts, with two flights sailing
(for the 2004 Nationals, there were four starts per race). In the next
race, the flights are shifted to sail against a different flight.
Ideally, enough races are sailed so that each flight has sailed against
all the other flights, a "round robin". At the 2004 Nationals, two
round robins were sailed. .

So - indeed a "race" will have multiple 1sts, 2nds, etc.

That program I mentioned, St. Pete Scorer for Optis, is set up
specifically to deal with this. It can automatically set up the flights
and then score both overall and by age group. For the second round
robin, the flights COULD have been re-seeded by St. Pete's, but the
regatta committee decided this would have been confusing!

But, as I mentioned, St. Pete's really bogged down with an overall fleet
of 400+ boats! If I can find the back up CD I burned of the files, I
might try to see how Sailwave handles it (my PS's hard drive died, so
can't get the files there!)

Regards,
Al Guardino
Bellport Bay Yacht Club, Great South Bay Yacht Racing Association
New York

Hi Mark
Gone back to SUG so that others can see.

I (and perhaps others) may have misinterpreted your query.
Opis & many other big fleets have gone over to racing in flights.
Results of the Red & Green 'flight race' are added to the results of the Blue & Yellow 'flight

race'

to produce an overall regatta race. i.e the race has two 1sts, 2nds, 3rds etc

From you email, you seem to be suggesting that all boats (red, blue & white) sail against each

other

in one mass start.
When the regatta has ended, PRIZES are then awarded to the highest x boats from each fleet.
I presume fleets are based upon ability, age or some other criteria.

If I have arrived at the correct conclusion then a solution to your problem may be as below:
- Sort your final results by the column containing the fleet indentity
- Hold down the Control key then do a secondary sort on the rank column
If required:
- 'Seed' a column for each fleet in turn (this will enter a 'fleet' position)
Publish the overall series in whatever format you require
(Results will be published as they appear on the screen)

I have attached a copy of a regatta which I ran last year so that you can play with sorting,
publishing, seeding etc

Is this what you were looking for???

I did try to set up a 'top x' listing using the Prizes option but this only automatically chooses
the best from a range of competitors (did this not used to have a wider range of finishers than

just

best???)

Re your second question
I have used a high point system of number of boats beat (ignoring divided by) with great success in
a National ranking series for one design fleets.
The benefit of this is that if a boat finishes 1st in a 30 boat regatta, it gains more points than
winning a 10 boat regatta.
There are many mathematicians who will argue 'coefficient this' & 'standard deviation that' but a
simple boats beat + 1 is something that competitors can understand.
Perhaps the argument is to
retain the first part of your sentence (boats beat + 1) & delete the last bit (divided by.....)

Let me know if you need any more help

Regards
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Schneider [mailto:mschneid@msn.com]
Sent: 10 January 2006 20:05
To: rat@attat.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] US Opti red white and blue fleet scoring

Hi Ralph

The CBYRA region is attemtping to mandate the use of Javascore this season.
I discovered that Sailwave could not quickly implement the following.

"Overall Scoring is USODA Policy

Overal scoring is USODA policy., It determines places within the red, blue,
and white fleets simply by looking at the overall results using blue fleet
as and eaxample, to determin 1st through 5th place in blue fleet using
overall socoring, you simply run down the overall list of finisher and look
for the first blue fleeter, the second blue fleeter etc. This gives you the
order of finihser in the blue fleet and awards are then made using this
list:

... with overall scoring the awards made to blue fleeters are exactly the
same as the order in which they finished in the overall results.

... all regatta organizers are urged to use this scoring method rather then
fleet scoring when calculating standings in red white and blue fleets.

Java score has a check box which rescores the overall standings into Overall
fleet standings.

Ander's did not say much that helped me here. I haven't puzzled over it yet
though either. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I have a second question

They also use a high point calculaton that does not make sense to me. Its
something like number of boats beaten + 1 divided by the number of boats
that you could have beaten + 1.

This is just a linear calculation Does it really do a good job of scoring a
region wide one design fleet
5 or more events qualify you for high point.

They find that the kids don't pay much attention to this result and believe
that if they publish the high point standings every week that the kids will
be interested. I think they are missing something but can''t put it into
words. I would think that Rinderlee or the Chipstead system would be far
supperior and the table would allow a kid to figure ... what score they need
to move up. What argument should I make to them.

Thanks
Mark

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

On-Line Sailwave help...
http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section at
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

On-Line Sailwave help...
http://sailwave.com/help/HTML/

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links