Re "payback": Don't think of trying to payback Grimstad Seilforening! We have been more than satisfied all these years!
I see your problem ('Sailwave will always be free but you can make a dotation'). Pherhaps you have to stop the sailwave project, and start a new?
Re 1.88 vs. 1.57
Actually the differences between 1.57 and 1.88 are so big, that you nearly can't call them the same program...
In the beginning, long time ago, SW was heading for "easy to use" goals. It still does, but alot of the stuff in 1.88 is NOT easy to use no matter the software! If you still want one single, multipurpose, software for scoring regattas, you might think of dividing SW into sections. Think it is what yo're into right now.
Still ther will be so many options in SW, so users will be confused anyway! Perhaps it could be 2 projects SailWave and SailWave Advanced ? Then you could solve 2 problems at the same time....
SailWave (the light version) should be less complicated than 1.57. More like 1.43.....
regards,
Martin Bølgen
97517102/37251906
Grimstad seilforening
···
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Colin Jenkins" <colin@sailwave.com>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:10:57 -0000
<html><body>
<tt>
Hi All,<BR>
<BR>
Have probably gong a little off track lately. Many users coming to 1.88<BR>
from 1.57 are horrified. Need to simplify the UI. I have ideas how to do<BR>
it. Problam at present is that everything is 'in your face' - you can edit<BR>
a competitor without being hit by flight stuff, ditto in scoring systems<BR>
etc. And starts in races (not always needed). I propose to have more items<BR>
in the setup menu, for starts, flights, ratings etc and *not* have them<BR>
elsewhere, in this way you only see them if you need them. It has<BR>
advantages too, Sailwave will use the first relevant rating/flight/start etc<BR>
in the list so for example if you have a fleet of 100 boats but only 4<BR>
classes, you'll only need 4 ratings. Starts will be inheritable, so you<BR>
donnt need to deifne them for every race etc etc. I've used this sort of<BR>
technique (a list if items and the first relevant one is used) before and it<BR>
works well. Scoring systems will be simplified with more tabs so that the<BR>
less used stuff like add c is in a tab of its own. I'll use 1.57 as the<BR>
reference so that users coming from it to this later verison are much more<BR>
comfortable. I'll be quiet for a while.<BR>
<BR>
PS: I may have to remove the partnership thing. Since I changed it to say<BR>
'Sailwave will always be free but you can make a dotation' (from 'Sailwave<BR>
may be a pay for thing later') 2 clubs have donated in 6 months. Proabably<BR>
better to let it die and perhaps try for funding from a main sponsor.<BR>
Thanks to thouse who have donated to the project - I need to find a way to<BR>
recognise your contrubution if I do remove the scheme, but I'm not sure how<BR>
yet without paying you back!!<BR>
<BR>
Colin<BR> www.sailwave.com<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>
Checked by AVG Free Edition.<BR>
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.7/160 - Release Date: 03/11/2005<BR>
<BR>
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________________________________________________________________
Sent via the WebMail system at mail.seilforening.no
I can visualise how the initial perception will be like v1.4/1.5 - but
designed such that you can go deeper into it later. I am indeed thinking of
turing off much of the UI by default (even ratings) - users then switch it
on as they need it. This is easier for me than multiple verisons but has
the same effect. I could not cope with maintaining more than one version.
Essentially the philosophy is dont clutter basic operations with
'advanced'/little-used stuff.
Its easyish to do - my problem, as always, is backwards compatibility - i
can do a decent bit of development in a couple of hours and then spend at
least that time again writing upgrade code so that older versions will run.
Compared to some competitors even 1.88 is easy, it's just that many many
users have expectation of picking it up a day before a regatta and using it.
We all know that's not a good plan but it is what people do...
PS: the difference between 1.88 and 1.57 is mostly perceived, and not
actually real - fleets are still there - just renamed to something generic
(scoring system overrides) - this is what causes the problems...
I am still searching for anme to replace fleets - functionally it;s a
scoring system specialisation that is applied when scoring by field F and
the value of thet field is V. I think 1.58 called it a 'scoring rule' -
currently it's 'scoring override' - I tend to prefer the formater actually
but somthing more sexy would be better. Fleet will cause problems with the
fleet field I think - or maybe not…???
Re "payback": Don't think of trying to payback Grimstad
Seilforening! We have been more than satisfied all these years!
I see your problem ('Sailwave will always be free but you can
make a dotation'). Pherhaps you have to stop the sailwave
project, and start a new?
Re 1.88 vs. 1.57
Actually the differences between 1.57 and 1.88 are so big, that
you nearly can't call them the same program...
In the beginning, long time ago, SW was heading for "easy to use"
goals. It still does, but alot of the stuff in 1.88 is NOT easy
to use no matter the software! If you still want one single,
multipurpose, software for scoring regattas, you might think of
dividing SW into sections. Think it is what yo're into right now.
Still ther will be so many options in SW, so users will be
confused anyway! Perhaps it could be 2 projects SailWave and
SailWave Advanced ? Then you could solve 2 problems at the same time....
SailWave (the light version) should be less complicated than
1.57. More like 1.43.....
regards,
Martin B�lgen
97517102/37251906
Grimstad seilforening
---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
From: "Colin Jenkins" <colin@sailwave.com>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2005 12:10:57 -0000
><html><body>
>
>
><tt>
>Hi All,<BR>
><BR>
>Have probably gong a little off track lately.� Many users coming
to 1.88<BR>
>from 1.57 are horrified.� Need to simplify the UI.� I have ideas
how to do<BR>
>it.� Problam at present is that everything is 'in your face' -
you can edit<BR>
>a competitor without being hit by flight stuff, ditto in scoring
systems<BR>
>etc. And starts in races (not always needed).� I propose to have
more items<BR>
>in the setup menu, for starts, flights, ratings etc and *not*
have them<BR>
>elsewhere, in this way you only see them if you need them.� It has<BR>
>advantages too, Sailwave will use the first relevant
rating/flight/start etc<BR>
>in the list so for example if you have a fleet of 100 boats but
only 4<BR>
>classes, you'll only need 4 ratings.� Starts will be
inheritable, so you<BR>
>donnt need to deifne them for every race etc etc.� I've used
this sort of<BR>
>technique (a list if items and the first relevant one is used)
before and it<BR>
>works well. Scoring systems will be simplified with more tabs so
that the<BR>
>less used stuff like add c is in a tab of its own.� I'll use
1.57 as the<BR>
>reference so that users coming from it to this later verison are
much more<BR>
>comfortable.� I'll be quiet for a while.<BR>
><BR>
>PS: I may have to remove the partnership thing.� Since I changed
it to say<BR>
>'Sailwave will always be free but you can make a dotation' (from
'Sailwave<BR>
>may be a pay for thing later') 2 clubs have donated in 6 months.�
Proabably<BR>
>better to let it die and perhaps try for funding from a main sponsor.<BR>
>Thanks to thouse who have donated to the project - I need to
find a way to<BR>
>recognise your contrubution if I do remove the scheme, but I'm
not sure how<BR>
>yet without paying you back!!<BR>
><BR>
>Colin<BR>
>www.sailwave.com<BR>
><BR>
>--<BR>
>No virus found in this outgoing message.<BR>
>Checked by AVG Free Edition.<BR>
>Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.12.7/160 - Release Date:
03/11/2005<BR>
><BR>
></tt>
>
>
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________________________________________________________________
Sent via the WebMail system at mail.seilforening.no
I do not find Sailwave particularly confusing or intimidating. There
are features I may never use, but that's true of most software! What
might make it more user-friendly are "wizards" to walk casual users
thru basic tasks like "Create a handicap regatta" or "Create a
pursuit regatta" (hint, hint).
I don't quite follow your concern with "fleets", but could "division"
be the word you're looking for? E.g., "Handicap Division", "OD
Division", "Multihull Division".
One thing I find particularly reassuring about the "feel" of SW, is
that the scoring grid is ALWAYS visible and it's in a format which
approximates the final output. Almost WYSIWYG! Many programs only
produce the entrant list and/or scoring grid when you print them or
open a separate window - very disconcerting! Sailwave is also quite
intuitive in that to edit a boat, you double-click on that boat, to
edit a race, you right-click on the race header, etc. These are the
things that draw me to SW.
Finally, our club would be happy to pay for good software!
(Historically, we've been happy to pay for poor-to-mediocre software)
Perhaps you could still offer a free trial version (limit the number
of entries or races) so that RC volunteers could practice at home.
Love your program. I have used it now for 4 years.
My SI was written around Sailwave. Club racing ain't international We race 4-8 USSA Portsmouth boats for weekend regattas. Positions are then manually scored into a separate long season series for the BIG TROPHY.
Flights and all the fancy stuff, I don't use -- but is is interesting to me that scoring could be so complex.
I wonder that you should work so hard to accomodate all the varied requirements. I would think that folks would move toward you???
I do not find Sailwave particularly confusing or intimidating. There
are features I may never use, but that's true of most software! What
might make it more user-friendly are "wizards" to walk casual users
thru basic tasks like "Create a handicap regatta" or "Create a
pursuit regatta" (hint, hint).
Yes, that is going to happen (wizxards) one I am itching to get to is a
competitor entry wizard, so you can pick the fields you're gong to populate
and just seem them etc.
What do I need to do to accommodate pursuit races (anyone) - I think it's
just a matter of generating the paperwork showing time offsets because as
far as results go it's like one-design isn't it...?
I don't quite follow your concern with "fleets", but could "division"
be the word you're looking for? E.g., "Handicap Division", "OD
Division", "Multihull Division".
It's probably just me getting my knickers in a twist about something that
nobody else is worried about - Unfortunately I'm good at that - this is very
very sad but I woke up at 4am yesterdy and worried about it for a couple of
hours... I've gotta get a life...!
One thing I find particularly reassuring about the "feel" of SW, is
that the scoring grid is ALWAYS visible and it's in a format which
approximates the final output. Almost WYSIWYG! Many programs only
produce the entrant list and/or scoring grid when you print them or
open a separate window - very disconcerting! Sailwave is also quite
intuitive in that to edit a boat, you double-click on that boat, to
edit a race, you right-click on the race header, etc. These are the
things that draw me to SW.
I like the overall feel too but I do think that I have to take some of the
more 'advanced' less-used stuff from the basic windows and put them away
somewhere else.
Finally, our club would be happy to pay for good software!
(Historically, we've been happy to pay for poor-to-mediocre software)
Perhaps you could still offer a free trial version (limit the number
of entries or races) so that RC volunteers could practice at home.
Thanks Kett, that's nice to hear, but I think I'm going to do down the free
and get a main sponsor route. See reply to Wayne for attempted rationale.
Love your program. I have used it now for 4 years.
My SI was written around Sailwave. Club racing ain't
international
Now that's an approach I like, easy for me and easy for you too...
Flights and all the fancy stuff, I don't use -- but is is
interesting to me
that scoring could be so complex.
I wonder that you should work so hard to accomodate all the varied
requirements. I would think that folks would move toward you???
The Add C flight stuff was essential to do because that's how large events
are scored now, but it does need moving to one wide so it's not in your face
all the time.
I do not find Sailwave particularly confusing or intimidating. There
are features I may never use, but that’s true of most software! What
might make it more user-friendly are “wizards” to walk casual users
thru basic tasks like “Create a handicap regatta” or “Create a
pursuit regatta” (hint, hint).
Yes, that is going to happen (wizxards) one I am itching to get to is a
competitor entry wizard, so you can pick the fields you’re gong to populate
and just seem them etc.
What do I need to do to accommodate pursuit races (anyone) - I think it’s
just a matter of generating the paperwork showing time offsets because as
far as results go it’s like one-design isn’t it…?
I don’t quite follow your concern with “fleets”, but could “division”
be the word you’re looking for? E.g., “Handicap Division”, “OD
Division”, “Multihull Division”.
It’s probably just me getting my knickers in a twist about something that
nobody else is worried about - Unfortunately I’m good at that - this is very
very sad but I woke up at 4am yesterdy and worried about it for a couple of
hours… I’ve gotta get a life…!
One thing I find particularly reassuring about the “feel” of SW, is
that the scoring grid is ALWAYS visible and it’s in a format which
approximates the final output. Almost WYSIWYG! Many programs only
produce the entrant list and/or scoring grid when you print them or
open a separate window - very disconcerting! Sailwave is also quite
intuitive in that to edit a boat, you double-click on that boat, to
edit a race, you right-click on the race header, etc. These are the
things that draw me to SW.
I like the overall feel too but I do think that I have to take some of the
more ‘advanced’ less-used stuff from the basic windows and put them away
somewhere else.
Finally, our club would be happy to pay for good software!
(Historically, we’ve been happy to pay for poor-to-mediocre software)
Perhaps you could still offer a free trial version (limit the number
of entries or races) so that RC volunteers could practice at home.
Thanks Kett, that’s nice to hear, but I think I’m going to do down the free
and get a main sponsor route. See reply to Wayne for attempted rationale.
Yes, setting-up a pursuit race is mostly a matter of generating the
start time schedule. The finishes are then recorded like OD - tho' I
suppose you could record the finish times and back-calculate ratings,
etc., but it's not that important for a "fun" race! It might be nice
to include the start times with the results as a point of interest.
We use pursuit with PHRF Time-on-Dist, which is simple to calculate.
The offset for the slowest boat registered (highest PHRF sec/mi
number) is set at zero and, with a known course distance, every other
boat's offset is calculated relative to that boat. (or you could use
an arbitrary high rating number instead of the slowest boat)
I confess I don't know that much about other scoring systems or how
they might work for pursuit. A Time-on-Time pursuit could work if the
instructions were that after x-hours of sailing, the leading boat
wins. I would think some VPP-based systems, which predict a boat's
actual speed around the course, might be used to set up a pursuit
race given the required parameters. But then, how many "grand prix"
pursuit races have you seen lately?!
I would be happy with a function to "back calculate" individual start
times or offsets based on course parameters (distance, elapsed time,
etc). Once the various start times are assigned in the Edit Result
window, the race can be calculated and published pretty much as usual.
Any better ideas?
Kett
What do I need to do to accommodate pursuit races (anyone) - I
think it's
just a matter of generating the paperwork showing time offsets
because as
far as results go it's like one-design isn't it...?
I have a great spreadsheet which was set up for the Tiger Trophy Pursuit using Portsmouth Yardstick
(250 dinghies!!)
This automatically calculates the start times for each class & produces a starting sheet which can
be posted on the noticeboard.
There are many references to the Tiger Trophy but it can be 'cleaned up' to suit your event
Yes, setting-up a pursuit race is mostly a matter of generating the
start time schedule. The finishes are then recorded like OD - tho' I
suppose you could record the finish times and back-calculate ratings,
etc., but it's not that important for a "fun" race! It might be nice
to include the start times with the results as a point of interest.
We use pursuit with PHRF Time-on-Dist, which is simple to calculate.
The offset for the slowest boat registered (highest PHRF sec/mi
number) is set at zero and, with a known course distance, every other
boat's offset is calculated relative to that boat. (or you could use
an arbitrary high rating number instead of the slowest boat)
I confess I don't know that much about other scoring systems or how
they might work for pursuit. A Time-on-Time pursuit could work if the
instructions were that after x-hours of sailing, the leading boat
wins. I would think some VPP-based systems, which predict a boat's
actual speed around the course, might be used to set up a pursuit
race given the required parameters. But then, how many "grand prix"
pursuit races have you seen lately?!
I would be happy with a function to "back calculate" individual start
times or offsets based on course parameters (distance, elapsed time,
etc). Once the various start times are assigned in the Edit Result
window, the race can be calculated and published pretty much as usual.
Any better ideas?
Kett
What do I need to do to accommodate pursuit races (anyone) - I
think it's
just a matter of generating the paperwork showing time offsets
because as
far as results go it's like one-design isn't it...?
` I have a great spreadsheet which was set up for the Tiger Trophy Pursuit using Portsmouth Yardstick
(250 dinghies!!)
This automatically calculates the start times for each class & produces a starting sheet which can
be posted on the noticeboard.
There are many references to the Tiger Trophy but it can be ‘cleaned up’ to suit your event
Yes, setting-up a pursuit race is mostly a matter of generating the
start time schedule. The finishes are then recorded like OD - tho’ I
suppose you could record the finish times and back-calculate ratings,
etc., but it’s not that important for a “fun” race! It might be nice
to include the start times with the results as a point of interest.
We use pursuit with PHRF Time-on-Dist, which is simple to calculate.
The offset for the slowest boat registered (highest PHRF sec/mi
number) is set at zero and, with a known course distance, every other
boat’s offset is calculated relative to that boat. (or you could use
an arbitrary high rating number instead of the slowest boat)
I confess I don’t know that much about other scoring systems or how
they might work for pursuit. A Time-on-Time pursuit could work if the
instructions were that after x-hours of sailing, the leading boat
wins. I would think some VPP-based systems, which predict a boat’s
actual speed around the course, might be used to set up a pursuit
race given the required parameters. But then, how many “grand prix”
pursuit races have you seen lately?!
I would be happy with a function to “back calculate” individual start
times or offsets based on course parameters (distance, elapsed time,
etc). Once the various start times are assigned in the Edit Result
window, the race can be calculated and published pretty much as usual.
Any better ideas?
Kett
What do I need to do to accommodate pursuit races (anyone) - I
think it’s
just a matter of generating the paperwork showing time offsets
because as
far as results go it’s like one-design isn’t it…?
` I have a great spreadsheet which was set up for the Tiger Trophy Pursuit using Portsmouth Yardstick
(250 dinghies!!)
This automatically calculates the start times for each class & produces a starting sheet which can
be posted on the noticeboard.
There are many references to the Tiger Trophy but it can be ‘cleaned up’ to suit your event
Yes, setting-up a pursuit race is mostly a matter of generating the
start time schedule. The finishes are then recorded like OD - tho’ I
suppose you could record the finish times and back-calculate ratings,
etc., but it’s not that important for a “fun” race! It might be nice
to include the start times with the results as a point of interest.
We use pursuit with PHRF Time-on-Dist, which is simple to calculate.
The offset for the slowest boat registered (highest PHRF sec/mi
number) is set at zero and, with a known course distance, every other
boat’s offset is calculated relative to that boat. (or you could use
an arbitrary high rating number instead of the slowest boat)
I confess I don’t know that much about other scoring systems or how
they might work for pursuit. A Time-on-Time pursuit could work if the
instructions were that after x-hours of sailing, the leading boat
wins. I would think some VPP-based systems, which predict a boat’s
actual speed around the course, might be used to set up a pursuit
race given the required parameters. But then, how many “grand prix”
pursuit races have you seen lately?!
I would be happy with a function to “back calculate” individual start
times or offsets based on course parameters (distance, elapsed time,
etc). Once the various start times are assigned in the Edit Result
window, the race can be calculated and published pretty much as usual.
Any better ideas?
Kett
What do I need to do to accommodate pursuit races (anyone) - I
think it’s
just a matter of generating the paperwork showing time offsets
because as
far as results go it’s like one-design isn’t it…?
`I have a great spreadsheet which was set up for the Tiger Trophy Pursuit using Portsmouth Yardstick
(250 dinghies!!)
This automatically calculates the start times for each class & produces a starting sheet which can
be posted on the noticeboard.
There are many references to the Tiger Trophy but it can be ‘cleaned up’ to suit your event
Yes, setting-up a pursuit race is mostly a matter of generating the
start time schedule. The finishes are then recorded like OD - tho’ I
suppose you could record the finish times and back-calculate ratings,
etc., but it’s not that important for a “fun” race! It might be
nice
to include the start times with the results as a point of interest.
We use pursuit with PHRF Time-on-Dist, which is simple to calculate.
The offset for the slowest boat registered (highest PHRF sec/mi
number) is set at zero and, with a known course distance, every other
boat’s offset is calculated relative to that boat. (or you could use
an arbitrary high rating number instead of the slowest boat)
I confess I don’t know that much about other scoring systems or how
they might work for pursuit. A Time-on-Time pursuit could work if the
instructions were that after x-hours of sailing, the leading boat
wins. I would think some VPP-based systems, which predict a boat’s
actual speed around the course, might be used to set up a pursuit
race given the required parameters. But then, how many “grand prix”
pursuit races have you seen lately?!
I would be happy with a function to “back calculate” individual start
times or offsets based
on course parameters (distance, elapsed time,
etc). Once the various start times are assigned in the Edit Result
window, the race can be calculated and published pretty much as usual.
Any better ideas?
Kett
What do I need to do to accommodate pursuit races (anyone) - I
think it’s
just a matter of generating the paperwork showing time offsets
because as
far as results go it’s like one-design isn’t it…?
We race 4-8 USSA Portsmouth boats for weekend regattas. Positions are then manually scored into a separate long season series for the BIG TROPHY.