scoring high point

What are the pros and cons of scoring low point versus high point?
Which is considered more accurate or is more popular with a small fleet
of 20 sailboats?

Low Point is the standard, recommended by ISAF. Used for scoring dinghy regattas.
Weak points of ISAF low point is that the difference between first and second is the same as between 99th and 100th, but the difference in performance is not the same. Further there are usually many ties.
There may be some bonus systems, for instance givin 0, 3, 5.7, 8.0, 10.0, 11.7, 13, further p+6.0. Solves some ties on the top of the rankings, and the performance of the top 7 boats is recognised.
The weakest point is when you are scoring a series lasting longer then a regatta, according to the RRS, DNF/DNS/OCS/DSQ and so are usually scored as the number of starters+1 and DNC's are scored and the number of entries+1, this kills boats not entering all races.

High point does not have this last weak point, as DNC's are just scored 0 and DNF/DNS/OCS/DSQ as last of the race. Never a lot of difference.
Most of the systems are giving a larger difference in points between 1st and 2nd than lower in the ranking.
Points in races with many boats are higher than for races with fewer entries...

Phil

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "pamespa" <pamespa@aol.com>
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 6:29 AM
Subject: [sailwave] scoring high point

What are the pros and cons of scoring low point versus high point?
Which is considered more accurate or is more popular with a small fleet
of 20 sailboats?

------------------------------------

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Low Point is the standard, recommended by ISAF. Used for scoring

dinghy

regattas.
Weak points of ISAF low point is that the difference between first and
second is the same as between 99th and 100th, but the difference in
performance is not the same.

An 'interesting' statement: surely, in incremental performance terms,
the difference in the sailors' performances could be the same,
regardless of overall place, and physically the one ahead beat the one
behind, whatever their race positions.....
Or am I missing the point - integer of course :slight_smile:

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Philippe De Troy" <philippe@...> wrote:

Literally, the only difference between scoring "low point" vs "high
point" is that in the first the boat with the lowest score wins while in
the latter the boat with the highest score wins. You can't say more with
certainty because there are several types of low point systems and a
multitude of high point systems.

The best way to answer your question is to look at "the Low Point
System" from the rulebook and talk about its pros and cons. [By the way,
the other system in the rulebook, the "Bonus Point System," is also a
low point system!] I would not say that it is "recommended" by ISAF
although it will be the default if you say nothing about scoring. And,
it is widely accepted world-wide. To be clear I will call it the "ISAF
Low Point System" here.

PROS of the ISAF Low Point System

1. It does a good job of scoring a regatta (meaning a series of races
in a row for which there is a single entry, single or multiple days). It
works best where the number of boats racing does not change radically
from race to race.

2. It is simple and easy to use.

3. Competitors will be familiar with it and it is easy to understand -
your place is your points.

CONS

1. Every low point system is based in one way or another on the number
of boats that beat you. That leaves them open to problems when the
number of boats changes from race to race. [Straight "high point"
systems have the same problem because they are based on the number of
boats that you beat.]That is the biggest CON.

2. Other minor points - as a default, the points for DNF or DSQ are one
more than the number of entrants for a regatta or boats that came to the
starting area for a series longer than a regatta. If there are a lot of
DNF boats that can leave a big gap between the last boat to actually
finish and these other boats. Some classes (Snipes?) fix this by
changing the score for DNF to be based on the last boat to actually
finish (one or two points more than that).

COMMENT

The difference in points between 1st and 2nd is identical to the
difference between last and 2nd to last. I don't think this is either a
PRO or a CON - it is simply a characteristic of the ISAF Low Point
System. The Bonus Point System has differential differences. Some high
point systems also have differential differences. In general, I would
say that differential differences ares far less popular today than they
were in the past (the former name of the ISAF "Bonus Point System" was
the "Olympic Scoring System" because it was used in the Olympics - it no
longer is, which is probably a statement about its popularity and
perceived fairness).

With all that said, what are you to do?

Is your series longer than a regatta? If not, then just use the ISAF Low
Point System. If so, then consider some other kind of system. A few
considerations:

A. Will the number of boats change radically from race to race? If so,
then consider a system that modifies scores based on the number of
entrants. A simple low point system (score = boats that beat you +1)
favors boats that do well in small races. A simple high point system
(boats you beat +1) favors boats that do well in large races. Neither is
fair so consider a system that bases scores both on the number that beat
you and the number you beat. If the number will be approximately the
same each race (though it might be different boats) then the ISAF Low
Point System will be OK in this regard.

B. Do you want to encourage boats to do more races or do you want to
allow a good sailor who only sails in a few races to win? You can play
with the number of discards to implement this. Or, you can play with the
points assigned when a boat doesn't come out. Some systems (low and
high) divide a boat's points by the number or races she sailed in. This
equalizes for number of races sailed in (but then you might want to
impose a minimum number).

C. The traditional "experts" (I'm thinking of Bemis) consider the
"fairest" systems to be quite complicated. In general, they require
dividing a boat's points by either the number of races she sailed or the
points she would have gotten had she won every race she sailed in). This
means that as the series progresses boats cannot really keep track of
their standing vs other boats unless you totally recalculate scores
after every race. With computers this isn't hard for the RC to do once
it is programed in but it means competitors may not be able to check
your math. They then many not have confidence in the system. The more
complicated a system is the more likely competitors are to not
understand it, and therefore not like it.

There was a discussion about some of the more complicated high point
systems earlier this year. You might check it out - High Point Scoring
Systems, message #7576

Regards,
Art Engel

What are the pros and cons of scoring low point versus high point?
Which is considered more accurate or is more popular with a small

fleet

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "pamespa" <pamespa@...> wrote:

of 20 sailboats?

The philosophy is "pyramidal".
At the top 1 boat
next level, 4 boats
further 9 boats, 16, 25...

A competitor jumping from level 2 to 1 (2nd to 4th place, to first, average gain 2 places) make the same performance as one jumping from 5 to 4 (an average gain of 8 places)... hence larger point intervals at the top...

Phil

···

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Croker" <mdcroker@which.net>
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 9:38 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: scoring high point

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Philippe De Troy" <philippe@...> wrote:

Low Point is the standard, recommended by ISAF. Used for scoring

dinghy

regattas.
Weak points of ISAF low point is that the difference between first and
second is the same as between 99th and 100th, but the difference in
performance is not the same.

An 'interesting' statement: surely, in incremental performance terms,
the difference in the sailors' performances could be the same,
regardless of overall place, and physically the one ahead beat the one
behind, whatever their race positions.....
Or am I missing the point - integer of course :slight_smile:

------------------------------------

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Because of its simplicity and general conformance to ISAF App A, the low point system is the more popular. Its good for short regattas.

Where clubs try to encourage and reward sailing in bigger fleets for club race series, high point systems such as CHIPS, Cox Spraque and Rinderle can be used. But they are more complex, not as easy to explain to beginners, etc.

regards,

Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield, South Africa

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
pamespa

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 6:29 AM

Subject: [sailwave] scoring high point


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There is another reason for preferring low point systems which, unless I have missed it, has not been mentioned in this discussion. That has to do with throw-outs in a series. In a low point system, competitors are trying to get as few points as possible, so throw-outs make sense. In a high-point system, competitors often feel cheated when hard-earned points are discarded.
Charles Tolman

Malcolm Osborne wrote:

···

Because of its simplicity and general conformance to ISAF App A, the low point system is the more popular. Its good for short regattas.
Where clubs try to encourage and reward sailing in bigger fleets for club race series, high point systems such as CHIPS, Cox Spraque and Rinderle can be used. But they are more complex, not as easy to explain to beginners, etc.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield, South Africa

    ----- Original Message -----
    *From:* pamespa <mailto:pamespa@aol.com>
    *To:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
    *Sent:* Sunday, May 11, 2008 6:29 AM
    *Subject:* [sailwave] scoring high point

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--
Charles W. Tolman
41-1255 Wain Road
North Saanich, BC, V8L 4R4
Canada
Tp/Fx: 250.656.1943
~~~~~~~~~~_/)~~~~~~~~~

Your point about throw outs is not quite correct Charles.

In both types of system you have to count a specified number of races to
“qualify” and in both you discard your worst scores when you have sailed more
than that requisite number.

In High Points you gradually build up your total until you have reached
the number needed to count but in Low Points you still need to count a score
for all the races needed to qualify.
This means that if you fail to do enough races to qualify then DNC points
are added (as normally specified in the SIs), while for High Points one simply
scores nil for the DNC races. In a
long series for club racing, when the number of boats expected to enter the
series is likely to be unknown, it is not then possible to allocate a sensible
DNC scores (other than some arbitrary high number) so the results make little
sense until the requisite number of races have been sailed.

So this means that one does not lose out in respect of throw outs when
using High Points and it also avoids the DNC problem that occurs in long
series.

One other significant advantage of HPS that has not been mentioned, and
is particularly evident in CHIPS, is that ties are nearly always eliminated automatically
whereas there are frequent ties in LPS - then requiring a pretty arbitrary tie resolution
method.

Geoff

-----Original
Message-----
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfCharles Tolman

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 12 May 2008 16:56
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] scoring
high point

There is
another reason for preferring low point systems which, unless I

have missed it, has not been mentioned in this discussion. That has to

do with throw-outs in a series. In a low point system, competitors are

trying to get as few points as possible, so throw-outs make sense. In a

high-point system, competitors often feel cheated when hard-earned

points are discarded.

Charles Tolman

Malcolm Osborne wrote:

Because of its simplicity and general conformance to ISAF App A, the

low point system is the more popular. Its good for short regattas.

Where clubs try to encourage and reward sailing in bigger fleets for

club race series, high point systems such as CHIPS, Cox Spraque and

Rinderle can be used. But they are more complex, not as easy to

explain to beginners, etc.

regards,

Malcolm Osborne

Sedgefield, South Africa

----- Original Message -----

From: pamespa mailto:pamespa@aol.com

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 6:29 AM

Subject: [sailwave] scoring high point


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Checked by AVG.

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2008/05/10 11:12 AM

Charles W. Tolman

41-1255 Wain Road

North Saanich, BC, V8L 4R4

Canada

Tp/Fx: 250.656.1943


</details>

With high point, you have to discard some first places in races when there were not a lot of competitors…

Maybe it’s disappointing, but when for me it’s better to finish 2nd out of 50 then 1st out of 4…

With the Austrian system, very popular in Europe, except in Austria, a DNC is 0 points, other scores are as last boat (basically 101), and points are 101+1000log(nb_starters/place). Same ratio nb_starters/place, same points : 1/3 gets same score as 3/9, or 41/123… Quite a good evaluation of performance. difference of points between 1st and 2nd is always 1000log(2)=301, between 2nd and 3rd, 1000*log(3/2)=176 and so on: 125, 97, 79…

Races with a very large number of starters give more points to the first, same point to the last, but not as much difference as a high point linear (score=n+1-p): 1st out of 5, 800 points, but 1st out of 50 just 1800, 1st out of 500 no more than 2800.

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Geoff Burrell

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 6:37 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] scoring high point

Your point about throw outs is not quite correct Charles.

In both types of system you have to count a specified number of races to “qualify” and in both you discard your worst scores when you have sailed more than that requisite number.

In High Points you gradually build up your total until you have reached the number needed to count but in Low Points you still need to count a score for all the races needed to qualify. This means that if you fail to do enough races to qualify then DNC points are added (as normally specified in the SIs), while for High Points one simply scores nil for the DNC races. In a long series for club racing, when the number of boats expected to enter the series is likely to be unknown, it is not then possible to allocate a sensible DNC scores (other than some arbitrary high number) so the results make little sense until the requisite number of races have been sailed.

So this means that one does not lose out in respect of throw outs when using High Points and it also avoids the DNC problem that occurs in long series.

One other significant advantage of HPS that has not been mentioned, and is particularly evident in CHIPS, is that ties are nearly always eliminated automatically whereas there are frequent ties in LPS - then requiring a pretty arbitrary tie resolution method.

Geoff

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Charles Tolman
Sent: 12 May 2008 16:56
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] scoring high point

There is another reason for preferring low point systems which, unless I
have missed it, has not been mentioned in this discussion. That has to
do with throw-outs in a series. In a low point system, competitors are
trying to get as few points as possible, so throw-outs make sense. In a
high-point system, competitors often feel cheated when hard-earned
points are discarded.
Charles Tolman

Malcolm Osborne wrote:

Because of its simplicity and general conformance to ISAF App A, the
low point system is the more popular. Its good for short regattas.

Where clubs try to encourage and reward sailing in bigger fleets for
club race series, high point systems such as CHIPS, Cox Spraque and
Rinderle can be used. But they are more complex, not as easy to
explain to beginners, etc.

regards,

Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield, South Africa

----- Original Message -----
From: pamespa mailto:pamespa@aol.com
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 6:29 AM
Subject: [sailwave] scoring high point


No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG.
Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.23.15/1426 - Release Date:
2008/05/10 11:12 AM


Charles W. Tolman
41-1255 Wain Road
North Saanich, BC, V8L 4R4
Canada
Tp/Fx: 250.656.1943

Hi,
If I were responsible for choosing a scoring system for a 20 boat club
racing series here is the process I would use.
1. I would declare that for the first year we were using a low point
scoring system with a clause that said a boat had to compete in at
least 2/3 of the completed races to be scored for the series and
eligible for a prize and another clause that said a boat's series
score was the total of its best scores for 2/3 of the races completed.
Of course the percentages could be changed.
2. I would ask everyone who was interested in the scoring issue to
read at least one of the references listed in Malcolm Clark' e-mail.
3. Before the next season I would hold a meeting of all those
interested in changing the scoring system. Any one who had not read
at least 1 of the references would be excluded! I expect that the
group would arrive at a scoring method suitable for your club fairly
quickly.
I hope this doesn't sound too Draconian, but there is nothing more
frustrating than endless discussions by people who don't appreciate
the issues in choosing a scoring system.

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "pamespa" <pamespa@...> wrote:

What are the pros and cons of scoring low point versus high point?
Which is considered more accurate or is more popular with a small fleet
of 20 sailboats?