Am just beginning to use Sailwave and it’s awesome. We have a several one-design boats racing together in the club races. While time on time makes sense for the scoring, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to award more handicap adjustment to the last place finisher in class 1 versus the first place finisher in class 1. Time on distance here would make a lot more sense.
Is there any way within Sailwave to adjust all of the boats in Class 1 by the same amount of time so that the worse performing boats don’t receive additional time because they make poor decisions, sail poorly etc. etc.?. The course didn’t change between 1st and last and the boats are the same.
Hi Bud - I’m not sure I quite understand what you are asking - could you give me an example and possibly share your Sailwave blw file to save some time.
Thanks
If you are scoring with start time and finishing times, adjusting
the start time forward or back would have the effect of adjusting
the elapsed time of the whole fleet.
But I don't see what effect this would have.
···
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Rondevlei, South Africa
On 2018-06-13 20:47,
[sailwave] wrote:
Am just beginning to use Sailwave and it's awesome. We
have a several one-design boats racing together in the
club races. While time on time makes sense for the
scoring, it doesn’t make a lot of sense to award more
handicap adjustment to the last place finisher in class 1
versus the first place finisher in class 1. Time on
distance here would make a lot more sense.
Is there any way within Sailwave to adjust all of the
boats in Class 1 by the same amount of time so that the
worse performing boats don’t receive additional time
because they make poor decisions, sail poorly etc. etc.?.
The course didn’t change between 1st and last and the
boats are the same.
This is one of the features of time on time scoring. Its really just something we have to accept, and most folk don’t even think of it. Time on distance has an equally large collection of different anomalies, and neither is an especially good representation of the relative difference in performance between craft of different speeds. I think, though, in the vast majority of cases all this particular anomaly really does is to give the less expert end of the fleet marginally better corrected times than they might be considered to deserve, but is unlikely to make much difference to actual placings.
The problem with trying to cure such ills is that the cure tends to be much worse than the disease. What you are suggesting seems to be effectively converting to a TOD style fixed time allowance for each class. The trouble with that is that the slowest boat in the first class and the fastest boat in the next class have a much greater handicap offset than would otherwise be the case. This would seem to be a greater ill than the one you would seek to remedy.
What I’m saying is that it will still be ToT but limiting the size of the time adjustment for each class of boat to that of the fastest boat of that class - not giving more time. This makes the assumption that the first boat in each class performed better, found the best wind, made the best start and best decisions - could be he just got lucky. This, to me is a way of measuring the course (ToD) using the best boat as the yardstick. Whatever the case, at least it sets a measure of the best performance and we could then apply that to each boat of the same class.
You are correct - the difference may be smaller than i think but once you start apply handicaps (the purpose to equalize the boats) the closer they get and the more important the seconds become.
I’ll take a look and see but suspect it would have to be pretty sophisticated to support the storing and comparing of fastest boat by class and applying it to later finishers.
I'm confused. By definition, one-design boats aren't handicapped unless
you are using skipper- or golf-handicapping. The NHC system of the RYA
is one example of that.
If you are talking about golf-handicapping then there are many issues to
consider. A statistician would say that the performance of boats should
be measured against an "average" or "typical" boat. That would be the
MEDIAN boat in the fleet (middle boat for an odd number, average of the
middle two boats for an even number). If you plot corrected times you
will find that you get a roughly bell-shaped curve except that there is
usually a tail toward the back. That makes sense as occasionally stuff
goes horribly wrong whereas it seldom goes incredibly right (although
that can happen, such as when the wind shuts off after some boats have
finished). Golf-handicapping presents significant problems and all
systems that do that have to make significant compromises.
I don't see ToT vs ToD as relevant here but I might be missing something.
By definition, ToT and ToD are equally accurate for average conditions
with no current. When there is current ToD can be almost meaningless as
it is based on speed over the bottom whereas a boat's performance is
determined by her speed through the water, which might be completely
different.
When conditions vary significantly from the average, ToT assumes
lower-rated boats need more time in light conditions (a percentage of a
larger elapsed time results in a larger adjustment). That is probably
fairly accurate when all the boats are of a particular type but if you
have heavy displacement boats mixed with light displacement boats than
that assumption won't be very accurate and could be 180 degrees wrong.
If you look around the world as to where ToT is generally preferred you
will find it is in high current (high tide or river) areas. That makes
sense based on the inherent inaccuracy of ToD when there is significant
current. Areas with no current but radically different wind conditions
might also find more accurate results subject however to the problem of
mixing heavy displacement and light displacement boats in the same class.
As Jon pointed out, one would really need to see your BLW file to figure
out what you are trying to accomplish before offering meaningful advice.
You can always go in and adjust the ratings for the next race by hand so
you could do your calculation outside Sailwave then then use Sailwave to
score.
Am just beginning to use Sailwave and it's awesome. We have a
several one-design boats racing together in the club races. While
time on time makes sense for the scoring, it doesn't make a lot of
sense to award more handicap adjustment to the last place finisher in
class 1 versus the first place finisher in class 1. Time on distance
here would make a lot more sense.
Is there any way within Sailwave to adjust all of the boats in Class
1 by the same amount of time so that the worse performing boats don't
receive additional time because they make poor decisions, sail poorly
etc. etc.?. The course didn't change between 1st and last and the
boats are the same.
I appreciate all the time it took to write the response but none of it applies to what I’m asking. As i indicated in my first post, we have multiple one design classes racing together in a club race. What I’m attempting to do is limit the corrected time adjustment (for subsequent finishers) to the the same adjustment applied to the first place finisher for each class.
The reason i mention ToD is that it (as i understand the process) would apply the same adjustment to each competitor within the same class. The approach I’m looking for is to use the first place finisher in each class to establish the correction amount.
I can use the app to simply calculate the winner in each class and correction time - export the file to excel and apply the correction amount to each - then manually update each competitor’s finishing place (since i believe the corrected time is protected). Seems like a waste since all I’d be using the app for is to track results.
Sharing a file at this point will not help. It’s just three different classes of boats with varied times and results. It doesn’t show what can’t (apparently) be done.
If you are exporting to Excel, you have the opportunity to record a macro that would automate the calculations assuming you will be repeating the actions, then if a column is protected then put the results of any calculations into a new column which you should then be able to do a sort on, possibly the last step in the macro is the sort.
I appreciate all the time it took to write the response but none of it applies to what I’m asking. As i indicated in my first post, we have multiple one design classes racing together in a club race. What I’m attempting to do is limit the corrected time adjustment (for subsequent finishers) to the the same adjustment applied to the first place finisher for each class.
The reason i mention ToD is that it (as i understand the process) would apply the same adjustment to each competitor within the same class. The approach I’m looking for is to use the first place finisher in each class to establish the correction amount.
I can use the app to simply calculate the winner in each class and correction time - export the file to excel and apply the correction amount to each - then manually update each competitor’s finishing place (since i believe the corrected time is protected). Seems like a ! waste since all I’d be using the app for is to track results.
Sharing a file at this point will not help. It’s just three different classes of boats with varied times and results. It doesn’t show what can’t (apparently) be done.
Well, AIUI it would be theoretically possible to have Sailwave go off to Excel, have Excel do some calculations and return. However before you do that I strongly advise (bitter experience here) that you get some sets of real results, but them in a spreadsheet, and manually make your proposed calculations and see if it makes any real difference.
I once thought up what seemed to me a much better way of doing series scoring, spent ages writing a custom spreadsheet full of macros in order to do the much improved calculations, and only then plumbed in a set of real world results to see the much improved results I thought my calculations were going to deliver. And the end result was it made near enough no difference to the results, what few changes there were were not obviously better or worse, and I sulkily abandoned the whole concept…
I can see what you are aiming at, but I very strongly suspect that in the vast majority of races it will make no difference at all. The first boats in each class will definitely still be scored in the same order, I think the top of the fleet will almost certainly be scored in the same order and I even suspect it will take a rather odd set of circumstances for places to change even among the back markers. But as I say, model it up with real race data and see when you’ve finished if its worth the effort.
If I understand what you are attempting to do then you could probably do it using Sailwave for a single race. By first scoring as standard and then from those results create a custom formula and rescore.
For multiple races, it would require a modification to Sailwave
I don't think anyone could figure out from the original post what the
exact question was. This follow-up didn't explain but it did help when
read in conjunction with the original post. Here is what I think is the
question being asked:
There are three TYPES of boats sailing in a single start (what the
rulebook refers to as a single class). Say J/24s, Melges 24s and J/22s.
Scoring is done by ToT. However, with ToT scoring each boat of the same
type has a different time adjustment (h,m,s) which is calculated as a
percentage of her elapsed time, with the same percentage used for each
boat of that type.
The original poster (OP) apparently wants the "time adjustment" for each
type of boat to be identical and to be equal to the time adjustment for
the first boat of that type to finish. In other words, if the first J/22
to finish (3rd in the start/class) has a time adjustment of 2min,33sec
then all other J/22s should be scored with the same time adjustment. In
essence, this would be be scoring some boats with ToT and other boats in
the same start/class with ToD (that isn't completely accurate but close
enough, in concept).
If that is the question (not sure it is but I'm hopeful I'm close) then
I'm confident that Sailwave cannot do it natively. In essence, you want
to use one scoring system for some boats and another scoring system for
other boats. You COULD export to Excel, calculate new ToT ratings and
then adjust the ratings for that race manually (the formula for new ToT
ratings for each boat would be "1 - (T-Adj/Elapsed)", where "T-Adj" is
the time adjustment for the first finisher of that boat type and
"Elapsed" is the elapsed time for that subsequent finisher).
While you could manually implement this type of system I don't think I'd
do so. It could be fundamentally unfair. Does a sailor really want their
rating to change based on how some other boat performs in the race, even
if of the same boat TYPE? I think probably not. MY results (and rating)
should be based on MY boat, not some other boat. Of course, this is just
my personal opinion and others might feel differently. An alternative
that might be more acceptable would be to change from ToT scoring to ToD
scoring if you want all boats of a single TYPE to have the same time
adjustment. There are formulas for converting the ratings.
Art
PS - POSTING MOSTLY IN CASE ANYONE FINDS THIS IN THE FUTURE
I appreciate all the time it took to write the response but none of
it applies to what I'm asking. As i indicated in my first post, we
have multiple one design classes racing together in a club race.
What I'm attempting to do is limit the corrected time adjustment (for
subsequent finishers) to the the same adjustment applied to the first
place finisher for each class.
The reason i mention ToD is that it (as i understand the process)
would apply the same adjustment to each competitor within the same
class. The approach I'm looking for is to use the first place
finisher in each class to establish the correction amount.
I can use the app to simply calculate the winner in each class and
correction time - export the file to excel and apply the correction
amount to each - then manually update each competitor's finishing
place (since i believe the corrected time is protected). Seems like
a waste since all I'd be using the app for is to track results.
Sharing a file at this point will not help. It's just three
different classes of boats with varied times and results. It doesn't
show what can't (apparently) be done.
I don't think anyone could figure out from the original post what the
exact question was. This follow-up didn't explain but it did help when
read in conjunction with the original post. Here is what I think is the
question being asked:
There are three TYPES of boats sailing in a single start (what the
rulebook refers to as a single class). Say J/24s, Melges 24s and J/22s.
Scoring is done by ToT. However, with ToT scoring each boat of the same
type has a different time adjustment (h,m,s) which is calculated as a
percentage of her elapsed time, with the same percentage used for each
boat of that type.
The original poster (OP) apparently wants the "time adjustment" for each
type of boat to be identical and to be equal to the time adjustment for
the first boat of that type to finish. In other words, if the first J/22
to finish (3rd in the start/class) has a time adjustment of 2min,33sec
then all other J/22s should be scored with the same time adjustment. In
essence, this would be be scoring some boats with ToT and other boats in
the same start/class with ToD (that isn't completely accurate but close
enough, in concept).
If that is the question (not sure it is but I'm hopeful I'm close) then
I'm confident that Sailwave cannot do it natively. In essence, you want
to use one scoring system for some boats and another scoring system for
other boats. You COULD export to Excel, calculate new ToT ratings and
then adjust the ratings for that race manually (the formula for new ToT
ratings for each boat would be "1 - (T-Adj/Elapsed)", where "T-Adj" is
the time adjustment for the first finisher of that boat type and
"Elapsed" is the elapsed time for that subsequent finisher).
While you could manually implement this type of system I don't think I'd
do so. It could be fundamentally unfair. Does a sailor really want their
rating to change based on how some other boat performs in the race, even
if of the same boat TYPE? I think probably not. MY results (and rating)
should be based on MY boat, not some other boat. Of course, this is just
my personal opinion and others might feel differently. An alternative
that might be more acceptable would be to change from ToT scoring to ToD
scoring if you want all boats of a single TYPE to have the same time
adjustment. There are formulas for converting the ratings.
Art
PS - POSTING MOSTLY IN CASE ANYONE FINDS THIS IN THE FUTURE
I appreciate all the time it took to write the response but none of
it applies to what I'm asking. As i indicated in my first post, we
have multiple one design classes racing together in a club race.
What I'm attempting to do is limit the corrected time adjustment (for
subsequent finishers) to the the same adjustment applied to the first
place finisher for each class.
The reason i mention ToD is that it (as i understand the process)
would apply the same adjustment to each competitor within the same
class. The approach I'm looking for is to use the first place
finisher in each class to establish the correction amount.
I can use the app to simply calculate the winner in each class and
correction time - export the file to excel and apply the correction
amount to each - then manually update each competitor's finishing
place (since i believe the corrected time is protected). Seems like
a waste since all I'd be using the app for is to track results.
Sharing a file at this point will not help. It's just three
different classes of boats with varied times and results. It doesn't
show what can't (apparently) be done.
