Scoring Redress

We had a boat get redress yesterday and weren't able to figure out how
to get Sailwave to score it the way we thought it should be.

Redress Decision: Boat X should be awarded redress of 3rd place (her
place in the race when she stopped to pick up an overboard sailor). No
other boat's scores will change so there will be two 3rd-place boats and
no fourth place boat (boat getting redress went from 4th to 3rd).

We couldn't get Sailwave to implement that decision. When we tried to
use "assign a position of" we got an error saying that we couldn't use
Finish Times (all our races are scored using Finish Times) for some
boats and an assigned position for others. We used a custom scoring code
and assigned the correct number of points but the place showed wrong. In
the end, we were not able to do what the PC instructed us to do but
since the points were correct there was no practical difference just the
PR problem of having to explain how things were scored.

Is there a way we could have implemented the PC decision?

[I note that even if we had gotten there to be two 3rd-place boats the
points might have been wrong (3.5 for each instead of 3 for each) as we
have to use standard tie-breaking rules because of finish-position ties
among other boats. But, since we couldn't get two 3rd-place boats we
don't know what would have happened.]

Art

Hi Art,
I would expect you to be able to either use the RDG code and enter 3 as the points or if you wish generate a custom code to do the same thing.

I tried it and both boats end up with 3 points - Which is what I understand you want.

Jon

···

Jon Eskdale
Sailwave

03333 443377

07976 709777

On 1 June 2014 22:47, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

We had a boat get redress yesterday and weren’t able to figure out how
to get Sailwave to score it the way we thought it should be.

Redress Decision: Boat X should be awarded redress of 3rd place (her
place in the race when she stopped to pick up an overboard sailor). No
other boat’s scores will change so there will be two 3rd-place boats and
no fourth place boat (boat getting redress went from 4th to 3rd).

We couldn’t get Sailwave to implement that decision. When we tried to
use “assign a position of” we got an error saying that we couldn’t use
Finish Times (all our races are scored using Finish Times) for some
boats and an assigned position for others. We used a custom scoring code
and assigned the correct number of points but the place showed wrong. In
the end, we were not able to do what the PC instructed us to do but
since the points were correct there was no practical difference just the
PR problem of having to explain how things were scored.

Is there a way we could have implemented the PC decision?

[I note that even if we had gotten there to be two 3rd-place boats the points might have been wrong (3.5 for each instead of 3 for each) as we have to use standard tie-breaking rules because of finish-position ties among other boats. But, since we couldn’t get two 3rd-place boats we don’t know what would have happened.]

Art

I think the issue is with the protest committee. They can’t change the physical positions, just the scores. So the redress boat should get 4th place and 3 points. The RDG code is then enough explanation.

The PC should have handed down a decision “Boat xyz is awarded a score equivalent to 3rd place”.

Ian

···

On 1 Jun 2014 22:47, “Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave]” sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

We had a boat get redress yesterday and weren’t able to figure out how
to get Sailwave to score it the way we thought it should be.

Redress Decision: Boat X should be awarded redress of 3rd place (her
place in the race when she stopped to pick up an overboard sailor). No
other boat’s scores will change so there will be two 3rd-place boats and
no fourth place boat (boat getting redress went from 4th to 3rd).

We couldn’t get Sailwave to implement that decision. When we tried to
use “assign a position of” we got an error saying that we couldn’t use
Finish Times (all our races are scored using Finish Times) for some
boats and an assigned position for others. We used a custom scoring code
and assigned the correct number of points but the place showed wrong. In
the end, we were not able to do what the PC instructed us to do but
since the points were correct there was no practical difference just the
PR problem of having to explain how things were scored.

Is there a way we could have implemented the PC decision?

[I note that even if we had gotten there to be two 3rd-place boats the points might have been wrong (3.5 for each instead of 3 for each) as we have to use standard tie-breaking rules because of finish-position ties among other boats. But, since we couldn’t get two 3rd-place boats we don’t know what would have happened.]

Art

Jon,

That is what we did. However, the PC decision was that the boat that got
redress should be joint 3rd-place. If there was a 3rd-place trophy for
the race they would be entitled to share it. The method we used, and you
confirm, leaves the redress boat showing in 4th place.

This isn't common but does happen. I've gone back and edited the HTML
file by hand so that the boat shows as 3rd-place. I was thinking that
there might be a way to do this right in the program.

Art

···

On 6/2/2014 12:54 AM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Art,
I would expect you to be able to either use the RDG code and enter 3 as the
points or if you wish generate a custom code to do the same thing.

I tried it and both boats end up with 3 points - Which is what I understand
you want.

Jon

Jon Eskdale
Sailwave
03333 443377
07976 709777

On 1 June 2014 22:47, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] < > sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

We had a boat get redress yesterday and weren't able to figure out how
to get Sailwave to score it the way we thought it should be.

Redress Decision: Boat X should be awarded redress of 3rd place (her
place in the race when she stopped to pick up an overboard sailor). No
other boat's scores will change so there will be two 3rd-place boats and
no fourth place boat (boat getting redress went from 4th to 3rd).

We couldn't get Sailwave to implement that decision. When we tried to
use "assign a position of" we got an error saying that we couldn't use
Finish Times (all our races are scored using Finish Times) for some
boats and an assigned position for others. We used a custom scoring code
and assigned the correct number of points but the place showed wrong. In
the end, we were not able to do what the PC instructed us to do but
since the points were correct there was no practical difference just the
PR problem of having to explain how things were scored.

Is there a way we could have implemented the PC decision?

[I note that even if we had gotten there to be two 3rd-place boats the
points might have been wrong (3.5 for each instead of 3 for each) as we
have to use standard tie-breaking rules because of finish-position ties
among other boats. But, since we couldn't get two 3rd-place boats we
don't know what would have happened.]

Art

The rules give the PC the authority to make almost any decision they
want. They certainly have the authority to change the places, as well as
scores, of boats. If our scoring program is unable to implement their
decision (and so requires editing HTML by hand) I might consider going
back to them and suggesting a modified decision but that is a bit like
the tail wagging the dog.

I have far more experience from the PC's perspective than the scorer's
(where I've only started helping out in the last two years compared to
20 years of hearing protests). As a PC member I am always sensitive to
such issues but in the end I don't think a PC should ever let the
difficulty of scoring redress get in the way of doing the fairest thing
in the circumstances.

Art

···

On 6/2/2014 1:44 AM, Ian Savell iansavell@gmail.com [sailwave] wrote:

I think the issue is with the protest committee. They can't change the
physical positions, just the scores. So the redress boat should get 4th
place and 3 points. The RDG code is then enough explanation.

The PC should have handed down a decision "Boat xyz is awarded a score
equivalent to 3rd place".

Ian
On 1 Jun 2014 22:47, "Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave]" < > sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

We had a boat get redress yesterday and weren't able to figure out how
to get Sailwave to score it the way we thought it should be.

Redress Decision: Boat X should be awarded redress of 3rd place (her
place in the race when she stopped to pick up an overboard sailor). No
other boat's scores will change so there will be two 3rd-place boats and
no fourth place boat (boat getting redress went from 4th to 3rd).

We couldn't get Sailwave to implement that decision. When we tried to
use "assign a position of" we got an error saying that we couldn't use
Finish Times (all our races are scored using Finish Times) for some
boats and an assigned position for others. We used a custom scoring code
and assigned the correct number of points but the place showed wrong. In
the end, we were not able to do what the PC instructed us to do but
since the points were correct there was no practical difference just the
PR problem of having to explain how things were scored.

Is there a way we could have implemented the PC decision?

[I note that even if we had gotten there to be two 3rd-place boats the
points might have been wrong (3.5 for each instead of 3 for each) as we
have to use standard tie-breaking rules because of finish-position ties
among other boats. But, since we couldn't get two 3rd-place boats we
don't know what would have happened.]

Art

Hi Art,

Certainly when I tried it they both had 3.0 points. So if the race was part of series they would have been equal. If this was a single standalone race then it would depend upon the tie breaking rules that were configured, as to what position they were given.

If you would like me to look into it further please send me the blw file or a blw file that demonstrates the issue

Jon

···

Jon Eskdale
07976 709777

Skype “eskdale”

On 2 June 2014 20:55, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Jon,

That is what we did. However, the PC decision was that the boat that got
redress should be joint 3rd-place. If there was a 3rd-place trophy for
the race they would be entitled to share it. The method we used, and you
confirm, leaves the redress boat showing in 4th place.

This isn’t common but does happen. I’ve gone back and edited the HTML
file by hand so that the boat shows as 3rd-place. I was thinking that
there might be a way to do this right in the program.

Art

On 6/2/2014 12:54 AM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Art,

I would expect you to be able to either use the RDG code and enter 3 as the

points or if you wish generate a custom code to do the same thing.

I tried it and both boats end up with 3 points - Which is what I understand

you want.

Jon

Jon Eskdale

Sailwave

03333 443377

07976 709777

On 1 June 2014 22:47, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] <

sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

We had a boat get redress yesterday and weren’t able to figure out how

to get Sailwave to score it the way we thought it should be.

Redress Decision: Boat X should be awarded redress of 3rd place (her

place in the race when she stopped to pick up an overboard sailor). No

other boat’s scores will change so there will be two 3rd-place boats and

no fourth place boat (boat getting redress went from 4th to 3rd).

We couldn’t get Sailwave to implement that decision. When we tried to

use “assign a position of” we got an error saying that we couldn’t use

Finish Times (all our races are scored using Finish Times) for some

boats and an assigned position for others. We used a custom scoring code

and assigned the correct number of points but the place showed wrong. In

the end, we were not able to do what the PC instructed us to do but

since the points were correct there was no practical difference just the

PR problem of having to explain how things were scored.

Is there a way we could have implemented the PC decision?

[I note that even if we had gotten there to be two 3rd-place boats the

points might have been wrong (3.5 for each instead of 3 for each) as we

have to use standard tie-breaking rules because of finish-position ties

among other boats. But, since we couldn’t get two 3rd-place boats we

don’t know what would have happened.]

Art

Jon,

We may be talking at cross purposes.

When we do it, both boats have 3.0 points. When you do it, both boats
have 3.0 points. We are in complete agreement about that. The "points"
aren't the issue. The places are.

When we do it, the boat getting redress shows as staying in 4th place. I
assume it is the same for you. The PC wanted the boat getting redress to
show as in 3rd place (along with another boat, also in 3rd). I couldn't
find a way to do that. If I assigned a place the program didn't like
that and said all boats have to be scored with finish times or with
places and you couldn't mix them - which is exactly what the PC told us
to do.

Are we talking about the same thing or different things? If you show the
boat getting redress in 3rd place then there is something in the setup
that I need to change. If you show that boat in 4th place then we've
done everything the program allows. It'll take me a little while to get
the file but I believe our file and your file are probably going to show
the same thing.

Art

···

On 6/2/2014 1:15 PM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Art,

Certainly when I tried it they both had 3.0 points. So if the race was
part of series they would have been equal. If this was a single standalone
race then it would depend upon the tie breaking rules that were configured,
as to what position they were given.

If you would like me to look into it further please send me the blw file or
a blw file that demonstrates the issue

Jon

Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype "eskdale"

On 2 June 2014 20:55, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] < > sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Jon,

That is what we did. However, the PC decision was that the boat that got
redress should be joint 3rd-place. If there was a 3rd-place trophy for
the race they would be entitled to share it. The method we used, and you
confirm, leaves the redress boat showing in 4th place.

This isn't common but does happen. I've gone back and edited the HTML
file by hand so that the boat shows as 3rd-place. I was thinking that
there might be a way to do this right in the program.

Art

On 6/2/2014 12:54 AM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Art,
I would expect you to be able to either use the RDG code and enter 3 as

the

points or if you wish generate a custom code to do the same thing.

I tried it and both boats end up with 3 points - Which is what I

understand

you want.

Jon

Jon Eskdale
Sailwave
03333 443377
07976 709777

On 1 June 2014 22:47, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] < >>> sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

We had a boat get redress yesterday and weren't able to figure out how
to get Sailwave to score it the way we thought it should be.

Redress Decision: Boat X should be awarded redress of 3rd place (her
place in the race when she stopped to pick up an overboard sailor). No
other boat's scores will change so there will be two 3rd-place boats and
no fourth place boat (boat getting redress went from 4th to 3rd).

We couldn't get Sailwave to implement that decision. When we tried to
use "assign a position of" we got an error saying that we couldn't use
Finish Times (all our races are scored using Finish Times) for some
boats and an assigned position for others. We used a custom scoring code
and assigned the correct number of points but the place showed wrong. In
the end, we were not able to do what the PC instructed us to do but
since the points were correct there was no practical difference just the
PR problem of having to explain how things were scored.

Is there a way we could have implemented the PC decision?

[I note that even if we had gotten there to be two 3rd-place boats the
points might have been wrong (3.5 for each instead of 3 for each) as we
have to use standard tie-breaking rules because of finish-position ties
among other boats. But, since we couldn't get two 3rd-place boats we
don't know what would have happened.]

Art

when i am on a protest committee i often check first what the scorer can do. it just causes too much trouble to go against the flow. we have to be fair to all and that means redress given has to be scored. i would never hesitate to consider the scoring when considering redress. if standard scoring programs do not score it you could be making a mistake.

mike butterfield iro ij iu

···

From: mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, June 2, 2014 9:15 PM

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Scoring Redress

Hi Art,

Certainly when I tried it they both had 3.0 points. So if the race was part of series they would have been equal. If this was a single standalone race then it would depend upon the tie breaking rules that were configured, as to what position they were given.

If you would like me to look into it further please send me the blw file or a blw file that demonstrates the issue

Jon

Jon Eskdale
07976 709777

Skype “eskdale”

On 2 June 2014 20:55, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Jon,

That is what we did. However, the PC decision was that the boat that got
redress should be joint 3rd-place. If there was a 3rd-place trophy for
the race they would be entitled to share it. The method we used, and you
confirm, leaves the redress boat showing in 4th place.

This isn’t common but does happen. I’ve gone back and edited the HTML
file by hand so that the boat shows as 3rd-place. I was thinking that
there might be a way to do this right in the program.

Art

On 6/2/2014 12:54 AM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Art,
I would expect you to be able to either use the RDG code and enter 3 as the
points or if you wish generate a custom code to do the same thing.

I tried it and both boats end up with 3 points - Which is what I understand
you want.

Jon

Jon Eskdale
Sailwave
03333 443377
07976 709777

On 1 June 2014 22:47, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] < > > sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

We had a boat get redress yesterday and weren’t able to figure out how
to get Sailwave to score it the way we thought it should be.

Redress Decision: Boat X should be awarded redress of 3rd place (her
place in the race when she stopped to pick up an overboard sailor). No
other boat’s scores will change so there will be two 3rd-place boats and
no fourth place boat (boat getting redress went from 4th to 3rd).

We couldn’t get Sailwave to implement that decision. When we tried to
use “assign a position of” we got an error saying that we couldn’t use
Finish Times (all our races are scored using Finish Times) for some
boats and an assigned position for others. We used a custom scoring code
and assigned the correct number of points but the place showed wrong. In
the end, we were not able to do what the PC instructed us to do but
since the points were correct there was no practical difference just the
PR problem of having to explain how things were scored.

Is there a way we could have implemented the PC decision?

[I note that even if we had gotten there to be two 3rd-place boats the points might have been wrong (3.5 for each instead of 3 for each) as we have to use standard tie-breaking rules because of finish-position ties among other boats. But, since we couldn’t get two 3rd-place boats we don’t know what would have happened.]

Art

Agreed. I wasn't on the protest committee and we were given the decision
rather than being asked what would be easy to score. We suggested a
change, it was rejected.

As the points were correct, we didn't consider it a mammoth issue.

As scorers, we edited the place by hand from 4th to 3rd and then put the
finish time back in as competitors generally like to know what their
finish time was even if it isn't used for some reason. That might be a
nice mod for future versions!

[We have another program we use for our weeknight series and that always
shows the recorded finish times even if there are no elapsed or
corrected times because of a scoring code. Personally, I think that is a
better practice.]

Art

PS - In this case, the boat got redress - moving them to equal 3rd place
- AND took a scoring penalty that added 3 points to their score. Without
showing the boat as being in 3rd-place, I suspect it might be impossible
for a competitor to figure out how the points were calculated. So, even
though I don't generally like awarding equal places here it actually
helped to make things clear.

···

On 6/2/2014 1:57 PM, Patricia Butterfield pmbutterfield@msn.com [sailwave] wrote:

when i am on a protest committee i often check first what the scorer can do. it just causes too much trouble to go against the flow. we have to be fair to all and that means redress given has to be scored. i would never hesitate to consider the scoring when considering redress. if standard scoring programs do not score it you could be making a mistake.

mike butterfield iro ij iu

From: mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Monday, June 2, 2014 9:15 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Scoring Redress

Hi Art,

Certainly when I tried it they both had 3.0 points. So if the race was part of series they would have been equal. If this was a single standalone race then it would depend upon the tie breaking rules that were configured, as to what position they were given.

If you would like me to look into it further please send me the blw file or a blw file that demonstrates the issue

Jon

Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype "eskdale"

On 2 June 2014 20:55, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] <sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

  Jon,

  That is what we did. However, the PC decision was that the boat that got
  redress should be joint 3rd-place. If there was a 3rd-place trophy for
  the race they would be entitled to share it. The method we used, and you
  confirm, leaves the redress boat showing in 4th place.

  This isn't common but does happen. I've gone back and edited the HTML
  file by hand so that the boat shows as 3rd-place. I was thinking that
  there might be a way to do this right in the program.

  Art

  On 6/2/2014 12:54 AM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] wrote:
  > Hi Art,
  > I would expect you to be able to either use the RDG code and enter 3 as the
  > points or if you wish generate a custom code to do the same thing.
  >
  > I tried it and both boats end up with 3 points - Which is what I understand
  > you want.
  >
  > Jon
  >
  > Jon Eskdale
  > Sailwave
  > 03333 443377
  > 07976 709777
  >
  >
  > On 1 June 2014 22:47, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] < > > sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
  >
  >>
  >>
  >> We had a boat get redress yesterday and weren't able to figure out how
  >> to get Sailwave to score it the way we thought it should be.
  >>
  >> Redress Decision: Boat X should be awarded redress of 3rd place (her
  >> place in the race when she stopped to pick up an overboard sailor). No
  >> other boat's scores will change so there will be two 3rd-place boats and
  >> no fourth place boat (boat getting redress went from 4th to 3rd).
  >>
  >> We couldn't get Sailwave to implement that decision. When we tried to
  >> use "assign a position of" we got an error saying that we couldn't use
  >> Finish Times (all our races are scored using Finish Times) for some
  >> boats and an assigned position for others. We used a custom scoring code
  >> and assigned the correct number of points but the place showed wrong. In
  >> the end, we were not able to do what the PC instructed us to do but
  >> since the points were correct there was no practical difference just the
  >> PR problem of having to explain how things were scored.
  >>
  >> Is there a way we could have implemented the PC decision?
  >>
  >> [I note that even if we had gotten there to be two 3rd-place boats the
  >> points might have been wrong (3.5 for each instead of 3 for each) as we
  >> have to use standard tie-breaking rules because of finish-position ties
  >> among other boats. But, since we couldn't get two 3rd-place boats we
  >> don't know what would have happened.]
  >>
  >> Art
  >>
  >>
  >

Hi Art,

My Test file

Unscored before RDG

Scored before RDG

RDG of 3 and Rescore

Both boats have rank of 3 which is what you wanted isn’t it

Jon

···

Jon Eskdale
07976 709777

Skype “eskdale”

On 2 June 2014 21:55, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Jon,

We may be talking at cross purposes.

When we do it, both boats have 3.0 points. When you do it, both boats
have 3.0 points. We are in complete agreement about that. The “points”
aren’t the issue. The places are.

When we do it, the boat getting redress shows as staying in 4th place. I
assume it is the same for you. The PC wanted the boat getting redress to
show as in 3rd place (along with another boat, also in 3rd). I couldn’t
find a way to do that. If I assigned a place the program didn’t like
that and said all boats have to be scored with finish times or with
places and you couldn’t mix them - which is exactly what the PC told us
to do.

Are we talking about the same thing or different things? If you show the
boat getting redress in 3rd place then there is something in the setup
that I need to change. If you show that boat in 4th place then we’ve
done everything the program allows. It’ll take me a little while to get
the file but I believe our file and your file are probably going to show
the same thing.

Art

On 6/2/2014 1:15 PM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Art,

Certainly when I tried it they both had 3.0 points. So if the race was

part of series they would have been equal. If this was a single standalone

race then it would depend upon the tie breaking rules that were configured,

as to what position they were given.

If you would like me to look into it further please send me the blw file or

a blw file that demonstrates the issue

Jon

Jon Eskdale

07976 709777

Skype “eskdale”

On 2 June 2014 20:55, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] <

sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Jon,

That is what we did. However, the PC decision was that the boat that got

redress should be joint 3rd-place. If there was a 3rd-place trophy for

the race they would be entitled to share it. The method we used, and you

confirm, leaves the redress boat showing in 4th place.

This isn’t common but does happen. I’ve gone back and edited the HTML

file by hand so that the boat shows as 3rd-place. I was thinking that

there might be a way to do this right in the program.

Art

On 6/2/2014 12:54 AM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Art,

I would expect you to be able to either use the RDG code and enter 3 as

the

points or if you wish generate a custom code to do the same thing.

I tried it and both boats end up with 3 points - Which is what I

understand

you want.

Jon

Jon Eskdale

Sailwave

03333 443377

07976 709777

On 1 June 2014 22:47, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] <

sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

We had a boat get redress yesterday and weren’t able to figure out how

to get Sailwave to score it the way we thought it should be.

Redress Decision: Boat X should be awarded redress of 3rd place (her

place in the race when she stopped to pick up an overboard sailor). No

other boat’s scores will change so there will be two 3rd-place boats and

no fourth place boat (boat getting redress went from 4th to 3rd).

We couldn’t get Sailwave to implement that decision. When we tried to

use “assign a position of” we got an error saying that we couldn’t use

Finish Times (all our races are scored using Finish Times) for some

boats and an assigned position for others. We used a custom scoring code

and assigned the correct number of points but the place showed wrong. In

the end, we were not able to do what the PC instructed us to do but

since the points were correct there was no practical difference just the

PR problem of having to explain how things were scored.

Is there a way we could have implemented the PC decision?

[I note that even if we had gotten there to be two 3rd-place boats the

points might have been wrong (3.5 for each instead of 3 for each) as we

have to use standard tie-breaking rules because of finish-position ties

among other boats. But, since we couldn’t get two 3rd-place boats we

don’t know what would have happened.]

Art

Jon,

The program does what you say. My actual situation was more complicated
and I think I messed things up in my mind and in the program file I was
using when I tried to simplify it. Sorry 'bout that!

In our situation, the boat got redress AND took a scoring penalty. I
believe Sailwave is determining places for a race based strictly on the
points scored for that race. I don't believe that is explicitly stated
anywhere in the RRS but I think logically it makes sense. I was thinking
that didn't seem to be what the rules provided but I now think the rules
are silent on the issue and it makes logical sense.

The problem that we had when scoring was that we could not apply both
scoring codes (RDG and SCP) in the program. So, we used a custom code to
force the points we wanted but then I thought the places were off. I now
believe our workaround was just fine.

However, our experience does highlight a potential issue. If a boat has
two scoring penalties then you need to apply two separate scoring
penalties. Imagine two ZFPs, you will need to a apply two 20% penalties
(meaning apply the 20% penalty twice) - that would not be the same as a
single 40% penalty because of rounding each 20% penalty. If Sailwave
could calculate and apply two or more adjustments consecutively then one
could apply both RDG and SCP (as we did) and, if it happened, one could
have two scoring penalties. Not common but it does happen. I think my
issue would then be fixed completely.

One other minor issue re calculation of the scoring penalty - our SIs
said "minimum of 2 places for 20% penalty and minimum of 3 place for 30%
penalty." It might be nice to have an option for the penalty to be
"greater of 20% or specified number of places." Otherwise, we might have
to create custom codes for each class that is a different size. A minor
point but it might be fairly easy to implement.

Art

···

On 6/2/2014 2:47 PM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Art,

My Test file

Unscored before RDG

Scored before RDG

RDG of 3 and Rescore

Both boats have rank of 3 which is what you wanted isn't it

Jon

Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype "eskdale"

On 2 June 2014 21:55, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] < > sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Jon,

We may be talking at cross purposes.

When we do it, both boats have 3.0 points. When you do it, both boats
have 3.0 points. We are in complete agreement about that. The "points"
aren't the issue. The places are.

When we do it, the boat getting redress shows as staying in 4th place. I
assume it is the same for you. The PC wanted the boat getting redress to
show as in 3rd place (along with another boat, also in 3rd). I couldn't
find a way to do that. If I assigned a place the program didn't like
that and said all boats have to be scored with finish times or with
places and you couldn't mix them - which is exactly what the PC told us
to do.

Are we talking about the same thing or different things? If you show the
boat getting redress in 3rd place then there is something in the setup
that I need to change. If you show that boat in 4th place then we've
done everything the program allows. It'll take me a little while to get
the file but I believe our file and your file are probably going to show
the same thing.

Art

On 6/2/2014 1:15 PM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Art,

Certainly when I tried it they both had 3.0 points. So if the race was
part of series they would have been equal. If this was a single

standalone

race then it would depend upon the tie breaking rules that were

configured,

as to what position they were given.

If you would like me to look into it further please send me the blw file

or

a blw file that demonstrates the issue

Jon

Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype "eskdale"

On 2 June 2014 20:55, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] < >>> sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Jon,

That is what we did. However, the PC decision was that the boat that got
redress should be joint 3rd-place. If there was a 3rd-place trophy for
the race they would be entitled to share it. The method we used, and you
confirm, leaves the redress boat showing in 4th place.

This isn't common but does happen. I've gone back and edited the HTML
file by hand so that the boat shows as 3rd-place. I was thinking that
there might be a way to do this right in the program.

Art

On 6/2/2014 12:54 AM, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Art,
I would expect you to be able to either use the RDG code and enter 3 as

the

points or if you wish generate a custom code to do the same thing.

I tried it and both boats end up with 3 points - Which is what I

understand

you want.

Jon

Jon Eskdale
Sailwave
03333 443377
07976 709777

On 1 June 2014 22:47, Art Engel artengel123@earthlink.net [sailwave] < >>>>> sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

We had a boat get redress yesterday and weren't able to figure out how
to get Sailwave to score it the way we thought it should be.

Redress Decision: Boat X should be awarded redress of 3rd place (her
place in the race when she stopped to pick up an overboard sailor). No
other boat's scores will change so there will be two 3rd-place boats

and

no fourth place boat (boat getting redress went from 4th to 3rd).

We couldn't get Sailwave to implement that decision. When we tried to
use "assign a position of" we got an error saying that we couldn't use
Finish Times (all our races are scored using Finish Times) for some
boats and an assigned position for others. We used a custom scoring

code

and assigned the correct number of points but the place showed wrong.

In

the end, we were not able to do what the PC instructed us to do but
since the points were correct there was no practical difference just

the

PR problem of having to explain how things were scored.

Is there a way we could have implemented the PC decision?

[I note that even if we had gotten there to be two 3rd-place boats the
points might have been wrong (3.5 for each instead of 3 for each) as

we

have to use standard tie-breaking rules because of finish-position

ties

among other boats. But, since we couldn't get two 3rd-place boats we
don't know what would have happened.]

Art

Hello Jon,

Found this thread from June 2014 that is similar to our situation.

We also have a 4th place boat that was awarded 3.0 RDG, but we don’t want the 5th place boat to move up to 4th. I can’t find a way for Sailwave to do this.
Thanks, Evert

—In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, <jon@…> wrote :

Hi Art,

My Test file

Unscored before RDG

Scored before RDG

RDG of 3 and Rescore

Both boats have rank of 3 which is what you wanted isn’t it

Jon

Jon Eskdale
07976 709777

Skype “eskdale”

···

On 2 June 2014 21:55, Art Engel artengel123@… [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Jon,

We may be talking at cross purposes.

When we do it, both boats have 3.0 points. When you do it, both boats
have 3.0 points. We are in complete agreement about that. The “points”
aren’t the issue. The places are.

When we do it, the boat getting redress shows as staying in 4th place. I
assume it is the same for you. The PC wanted the boat getting redress to
show as in 3rd place (along with another boat, also in 3rd). I couldn’t
find a way to do that. If I assigned a place the program didn’t like
that and said all boats have to be scored with finish times or with
places and you couldn’t mix them - which is exactly what the PC told us
to do.

Are we talking about the same thing or different things? If you show the
boat getting redress in 3rd place then there is something in the setup
that I need to change. If you show that boat in 4th place then we’ve
done everything the program allows. It’ll take me a little while to get
the file but I believe our file and your file are probably going to show
the same thing.

Art

On 6/2/2014 1:15 PM, Jon Eskdale jon@… [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Art,

Certainly when I tried it they both had 3.0 points. So if the race was

part of series they would have been equal. If this was a single standalone

race then it would depend upon the tie breaking rules that were configured,

as to what position they were given.

If you would like me to look into it further please send me the blw file or

a blw file that demonstrates the issue

Jon

Jon Eskdale

07976 709777

Skype “eskdale”

On 2 June 2014 20:55, Art Engel artengel123@… [sailwave] < > > > > > sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Jon,

That is what we did. However, the PC decision was that the boat that got

redress should be joint 3rd-place. If there was a 3rd-place trophy for

the race they would be entitled to share it. The method we used, and you

confirm, leaves the redress boat showing in 4th place.

This isn’t common but does happen. I’ve gone back and edited the HTML

file by hand so that the boat shows as 3rd-place. I was thinking that

there might be a way to do this right in the program.

Art

On 6/2/2014 12:54 AM, Jon Eskdale jon@… [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Art,

I would expect you to be able to either use the RDG code and enter 3 as

the

points or if you wish generate a custom code to do the same thing.

I tried it and both boats end up with 3 points - Which is what I

understand

you want.

Jon

Jon Eskdale

Sailwave

03333 443377

07976 709777

On 1 June 2014 22:47, Art Engel artengel123@… [sailwave] < > > > > >>> sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

We had a boat get redress yesterday and weren’t able to figure out how

to get Sailwave to score it the way we thought it should be.

Redress Decision: Boat X should be awarded redress of 3rd place (her

place in the race when she stopped to pick up an overboard sailor). No

other boat’s scores will change so there will be two 3rd-place boats and

no fourth place boat (boat getting redress went from 4th to 3rd).

We couldn’t get Sailwave to implement that decision. When we tried to

use “assign a position of” we got an error saying that we couldn’t use

Finish Times (all our races are scored using Finish Times) for some

boats and an assigned position for others. We used a custom scoring code

and assigned the correct number of points but the place showed wrong. In

the end, we were not able to do what the PC instructed us to do but

since the points were correct there was no practical difference just the

PR problem of having to explain how things were scored.

Is there a way we could have implemented the PC decision?

[I note that even if we had gotten there to be two 3rd-place boats the

points might have been wrong (3.5 for each instead of 3 for each) as we

have to use standard tie-breaking rules because of finish-position ties

among other boats. But, since we couldn’t get two 3rd-place boats we

don’t know what would have happened.]

Art

If you tick the box where code rule A6.2 is applied then the other boat scores should not change

Inline images 1

Drop me an email if you still have a problem, ideally with a sample file.

Jon

···

Jon Eskdale
07530 112233

Skype “eskdale”

On 31 October 2015 at 16:14, csi@ebspars.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Hello Jon,

Found this thread from June 2014 that is similar to our situation.

We also have a 4th place boat that was awarded 3.0 RDG, but we don’t want the 5th place boat to move up to 4th. I can’t find a way for Sailwave to do this.
Thanks, Evert

—In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, <jon@…> wrote :

Hi Art,

My Test file

Unscored before RDG

Scored before RDG

RDG of 3 and Rescore

Both boats have rank of 3 which is what you wanted isn’t it

Jon

Jon Eskdale
07976 709777

Skype “eskdale”

On 2 June 2014 21:55, Art Engel artengel123@… [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Jon,

We may be talking at cross purposes.

When we do it, both boats have 3.0 points. When you do it, both boats
have 3.0 points. We are in complete agreement about that. The “points”
aren’t the issue. The places are.

When we do it, the boat getting redress shows as staying in 4th place. I
assume it is the same for you. The PC wanted the boat getting redress to
show as in 3rd place (along with another boat, also in 3rd). I couldn’t
find a way to do that. If I assigned a place the program didn’t like
that and said all boats have to be scored with finish times or with
places and you couldn’t mix them - which is exactly what the PC told us
to do.

Are we talking about the same thing or different things? If you show the
boat getting redress in 3rd place then there is something in the setup
that I need to change. If you show that boat in 4th place then we’ve
done everything the program allows. It’ll take me a little while to get
the file but I believe our file and your file are probably going to show
the same thing.

Art

On 6/2/2014 1:15 PM, Jon Eskdale jon@… [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Art,

Certainly when I tried it they both had 3.0 points. So if the race was

part of series they would have been equal. If this was a single standalone

race then it would depend upon the tie breaking rules that were configured,

as to what position they were given.

If you would like me to look into it further please send me the blw file or

a blw file that demonstrates the issue

Jon

Jon Eskdale

07976 709777

Skype “eskdale”

On 2 June 2014 20:55, Art Engel artengel123@… [sailwave] <

sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Jon,

That is what we did. However, the PC decision was that the boat that got

redress should be joint 3rd-place. If there was a 3rd-place trophy for

the race they would be entitled to share it. The method we used, and you

confirm, leaves the redress boat showing in 4th place.

This isn’t common but does happen. I’ve gone back and edited the HTML

file by hand so that the boat shows as 3rd-place. I was thinking that

there might be a way to do this right in the program.

Art

On 6/2/2014 12:54 AM, Jon Eskdale jon@… [sailwave] wrote:

Hi Art,

I would expect you to be able to either use the RDG code and enter 3 as

the

points or if you wish generate a custom code to do the same thing.

I tried it and both boats end up with 3 points - Which is what I

understand

you want.

Jon

Jon Eskdale

Sailwave

03333 443377

07976 709777

On 1 June 2014 22:47, Art Engel artengel123@… [sailwave] <

sailwave@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

We had a boat get redress yesterday and weren’t able to figure out how

to get Sailwave to score it the way we thought it should be.

Redress Decision: Boat X should be awarded redress of 3rd place (her

place in the race when she stopped to pick up an overboard sailor). No

other boat’s scores will change so there will be two 3rd-place boats and

no fourth place boat (boat getting redress went from 4th to 3rd).

We couldn’t get Sailwave to implement that decision. When we tried to

use “assign a position of” we got an error saying that we couldn’t use

Finish Times (all our races are scored using Finish Times) for some

boats and an assigned position for others. We used a custom scoring code

and assigned the correct number of points but the place showed wrong. In

the end, we were not able to do what the PC instructed us to do but

since the points were correct there was no practical difference just the

PR problem of having to explain how things were scored.

Is there a way we could have implemented the PC decision?

[I note that even if we had gotten there to be two 3rd-place boats the

points might have been wrong (3.5 for each instead of 3 for each) as we

have to use standard tie-breaking rules because of finish-position ties

among other boats. But, since we couldn’t get two 3rd-place boats we

don’t know what would have happened.]

Art