At Eastbourne, we are looking into the possability of running a
personnal handicap system alongside the standard scoring system for
our sailing results.
Is it possible for this to be done using Sailwave?
Is there already a personnal handicap system already set up that we
can adopt. Which will save us having to 're-invent the wheel'!
Any constructive thoughts/ideas are most welcome
Thanks
Peter Daigneault
Sailing Sec.
Peter,
Sailwave does not currently do Personal Handicapping, it is something that
has been requested.
I have created an Excel spreadsheet into which I import the individual
results from Sailwave and do calculations based on the methods documented in
the RYA publication YR2. I have to revisit this spreadsheet to do the the
calculations ready for this years RYA PN return due soon.
If you are interested in a copy of the spreadsheet contact me.
Kind regards,
Huw Pearce
WebMaster, Datchet Water Sailing Club
www www.dwsc.co.uk
e-mail webmaster@dwsc.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Daigneault [mailto:dago@daigneault.fsnet.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:46 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
At Eastbourne, we are looking into the possability of running a
personnal handicap system alongside the standard scoring system for
our sailing results.
Is it possible for this to be done using Sailwave?
Is there already a personnal handicap system already set up that we
can adopt. Which will save us having to 're-invent the wheel'!
Any constructive thoughts/ideas are most welcome
Thanks
Peter Daigneault
Sailing Sec.
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http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
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Peter
I don't think that this can be done easily with Sailwave (for me 'easily' =
1 set of data input each race of a series with 2 sets of results, one for PY
and one for a PH which can be varied for each race) but would be delighted
if someone would prove me wrong! (I'm sure that it could be done using the
export facility and some cunning MSExcel work - but that does not meet my
definition of 'easily'....)
As for PH's, Colin directed me to Bryan Willis's Ostrobogulous system
"because it's so simple and yet very effective". See this link:-
http://www.sailwave.com/stuff/ostro.doc (MS word) BW has cleared use of
Ostro' in Sailwave... I have not tried to use it, as it is not a 'personal
handicap' system as such, but a different way of scoring a club series.
Currently at Lancing SC (tidal + open sea) we use relatively 'fixed' PH's
which I monitor (via the Rwin data in Sailwave - rating needed to win) and
tweak any obvious problems. Can be difficult between fleets as weather
conditions have such a big effect on results (there is a whole new can of
worms in wind / tide strength adjustment), as can the type of course - we
use a distorted trapezium for most of our PH series (beat, fetch, run,
reach), with average lap racing.
For interest, the crew skill factor corrected (that is crew skill factor
removed using a +50 to -50 range) adjustments to PY at the end of last year
for the following fleets were:
Laser 4000 -26
Contender -16
-1
Laser +3
Laser Radial +16
Streaker +36
Topper +139
Good luck!
Mike Croker
Lancing SC (UK)
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Daigneault [mailto:dago@daigneault.fsnet.co.uk]
Sent: 24 August 2004 05:46
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
At Eastbourne, we are looking into the possability of running a
personnal handicap system alongside the standard scoring system for
our sailing results.
Is it possible for this to be done using Sailwave?
Is there already a personnal handicap system already set up that we
can adopt. Which will save us having to 're-invent the wheel'!
Any constructive thoughts/ideas are most welcome
Thanks
Peter Daigneault
Sailing Sec.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Huw,
Thanks for your response. Yes I would be interested to receive a copy of your spreadsheet.
Best regards,
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: Huw Pearce
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 9:11 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
Peter,
Sailwave does not currently do Personal Handicapping, it is something that
has been requested.
I have created an Excel spreadsheet into which I import the individual
results from Sailwave and do calculations based on the methods documented in
the RYA publication YR2. I have to revisit this spreadsheet to do the the
calculations ready for this years RYA PN return due soon.
If you are interested in a copy of the spreadsheet contact me.
Kind regards,
Huw Pearce
WebMaster, Datchet Water Sailing Club
www www.dwsc.co.uk
e-mail webmaster@dwsc.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Daigneault [mailto:dago@daigneault.fsnet.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:46 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
At Eastbourne, we are looking into the possability of running a
personnal handicap system alongside the standard scoring system for
our sailing results.
Is it possible for this to be done using Sailwave?
Is there already a personnal handicap system already set up that we
can adopt. Which will save us having to 're-invent the wheel'!
Any constructive thoughts/ideas are most welcome
Thanks
Peter Daigneault
Sailing Sec.
-!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Peter,
As requested a copy of my spreadsheet in ZIPed state to save size. The one
attached is the one used to analyse the 2003 Symmetric Grand Prix held at
Datchet Water SC. I have to do the analysis for the 2004 event soon.
It should get you started if you know Excel. The one for analysing the club
Wednesday Evening series is much larger, we had this year 120 boats taking
part in the 15 race series, but uses the same methods & mechanism.
FYI - the version attached follows the RYA YR2 analysis guideline of using
the top two-thirds of the fleet. I have an issue with this which I am
willing to discuss if you are interested. To take account of my issue I have
another version of my spreadsheet which allows one to discard the top &
bottom so many percent.
Please let me know what you think and how you get on.
Kind regards,
Huw
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter&Jean Daigneault [mailto:dago@daigneault.fsnet.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:48 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
Huw,
Thanks for your response. Yes I would be interested to receive a copy of
your spreadsheet.
Best regards,
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: Huw Pearce
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 9:11 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
Peter,
Sailwave does not currently do Personal Handicapping, it is something
that
has been requested.
I have created an Excel spreadsheet into which I import the individual
results from Sailwave and do calculations based on the methods
documented in
the RYA publication YR2. I have to revisit this spreadsheet to do the
the
calculations ready for this years RYA PN return due soon.
If you are interested in a copy of the spreadsheet contact me.
Kind regards,
Huw Pearce
WebMaster, Datchet Water Sailing Club
www www.dwsc.co.uk
e-mail webmaster@dwsc.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Daigneault [mailto:dago@daigneault.fsnet.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:46 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
At Eastbourne, we are looking into the possability of running a
personnal handicap system alongside the standard scoring system for
our sailing results.
Is it possible for this to be done using Sailwave?
Is there already a personnal handicap system already set up that we
can adopt. Which will save us having to 're-invent the wheel'!
Any constructive thoughts/ideas are most welcome
Thanks
Peter Daigneault
Sailing Sec.
-!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Huw
If you need a copy of the Sailwave file for the 2004 SGP, let me know & I
will get the office to email you a copy.
Re PH's I also followed the YR2 principles to calculate personal PN's but
eliminated the top & bottom % to calculate the standard times & also
included all boats, (ignoring their 'status' S, P, R etc)
My logic for excluding top as well as bottom results was to eliminate the
effect of extremes at both ends.
The problem of how many to exclude depends very much on the average number
of boats sailing in club races & the 'skewing' in terms of the quality of
crews racing.
Regards
Ralph Tingle
Rutland SC & Ogston SC
-----Original Message-----
From: Huw Pearce [mailto:huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk]
Sent: 26 August 2004 09:06
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
Peter,
As requested a copy of my spreadsheet in ZIPed state to save size. The one
attached is the one used to analyse the 2003 Symmetric Grand Prix held at
Datchet Water SC. I have to do the analysis for the 2004 event soon.
It should get you started if you know Excel. The one for analysing the club
Wednesday Evening series is much larger, we had this year 120 boats taking
part in the 15 race series, but uses the same methods & mechanism.
FYI - the version attached follows the RYA YR2 analysis guideline of using
the top two-thirds of the fleet. I have an issue with this which I am
willing to discuss if you are interested. To take account of my issue I have
another version of my spreadsheet which allows one to discard the top &
bottom so many percent.
Please let me know what you think and how you get on.
Kind regards,
Huw
Huw / Ralph
Interesting ideas re: eliminating results from PY calculation (e.g. top as
well as bottom). Any idea just how sensitive such decisions are?
Mike Croker
Lancing SC
-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Tingle [mailto:rat@attat.com]
Sent: 26 August 2004 17:06
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
Hi Huw
If you need a copy of the Sailwave file for the 2004 SGP, let me know & I
will get the office to email you a copy.
Re PH's I also followed the YR2 principles to calculate personal PN's but
eliminated the top & bottom % to calculate the standard times & also
included all boats, (ignoring their 'status' S, P, R etc)
My logic for excluding top as well as bottom results was to eliminate the
effect of extremes at both ends.
The problem of how many to exclude depends very much on the average number
of boats sailing in club races & the 'skewing' in terms of the quality of
crews racing.
Regards
Ralph Tingle
Rutland SC & Ogston SC
-----Original Message-----
From: Huw Pearce [mailto:huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk]
Sent: 26 August 2004 09:06
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
Peter,
As requested a copy of my spreadsheet in ZIPed state to save size. The
one
attached is the one used to analyse the 2003 Symmetric Grand Prix held at
Datchet Water SC. I have to do the analysis for the 2004 event soon.
It should get you started if you know Excel. The one for analysing the
club
Wednesday Evening series is much larger, we had this year 120 boats taking
part in the 15 race series, but uses the same methods & mechanism.
FYI - the version attached follows the RYA YR2 analysis guideline of using
the top two-thirds of the fleet. I have an issue with this which I am
willing to discuss if you are interested. To take account of my issue I
have
another version of my spreadsheet which allows one to discard the top &
bottom so many percent.
Please let me know what you think and how you get on.
Kind regards,
Huw
-!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Hi Huw,
Many clubs allow competitors to use different boats within a series. This
would
seem to break a lot of PH system - do you handle it in some way...?
Colin
www.sailwave.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Huw Pearce [mailto:huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk]
Sent: 24 August 2004 09:12
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicapsPeter,
Sailwave does not currently do Personal Handicapping, it is something that
has been requested.I have created an Excel spreadsheet into which I import the individual
results from Sailwave and do calculations based on the methods
documented in
the RYA publication YR2. I have to revisit this spreadsheet to do the the
calculations ready for this years RYA PN return due soon.If you are interested in a copy of the spreadsheet contact me.
Kind regards,
Huw Pearce
WebMaster, Datchet Water Sailing Club
www www.dwsc.co.uk
e-mail webmaster@dwsc.co.uk-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Daigneault [mailto:dago@daigneault.fsnet.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:46 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicapsAt Eastbourne, we are looking into the possability of running a
personnal handicap system alongside the standard scoring system for
our sailing results.Is it possible for this to be done using Sailwave?
Is there already a personnal handicap system already set up that we
can adopt. Which will save us having to 're-invent the wheel'!Any constructive thoughts/ideas are most welcome
Thanks
Peter Daigneault
Sailing Sec.-!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
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Colin,
Thanks for the question!
I agree that it would possibly break an analysis
I deal with it in one of two ways:
a) If someone sails a different class I use the appropriate PN for that
race. The calculation method described by the RYA in YR2 will still work
because you have the PN for that race The PH is the difference between the
PN and the BCH (Back Calculated Handicap). Sailing a different class one is
likely not to sail as well, but by averaging the PH over a number of races
and perhaps eliminating the maximum & minimum values it will probably be OK.
b) Cheat - by recalculating the elapsed time for the PN of the 'normal'
class sailed.
This year we had one helm who sometimes raced his Laser 4000 and then when
he had no crew sailed his Laser. I have not yet done the analysis to see
what effect if any there might be. I will try to let you know when I have.
I have our Wednesday Evening Series and the FastSail Symmetric Grand Prix to
analyse for the Annual RYA Return in the next couple of weeks.
On top I have 5x A4 pages of actions for Datchet and the Osprey Class 
including two web site redesigns for which I am hoping to use Mambo CMS.
Kind regards,
Huw
-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: Friday, August 27, 2004 9:55 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
Hi Huw,
Many clubs allow competitors to use different boats within a series. This
would
seem to break a lot of PH system - do you handle it in some way...?
Colin
www.sailwave.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Huw Pearce [mailto:huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk]
Sent: 24 August 2004 09:12
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicapsPeter,
Sailwave does not currently do Personal Handicapping, it is something that
has been requested.I have created an Excel spreadsheet into which I import the individual
results from Sailwave and do calculations based on the methods
documented in
the RYA publication YR2. I have to revisit this spreadsheet to do the the
calculations ready for this years RYA PN return due soon.If you are interested in a copy of the spreadsheet contact me.
Kind regards,
Huw Pearce
WebMaster, Datchet Water Sailing Club
www www.dwsc.co.uk
e-mail webmaster@dwsc.co.uk-----Original Message-----
From: Peter Daigneault [mailto:dago@daigneault.fsnet.co.uk]
Sent: Tuesday, August 24, 2004 5:46 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicapsAt Eastbourne, we are looking into the possability of running a
personnal handicap system alongside the standard scoring system for
our sailing results.Is it possible for this to be done using Sailwave?
Is there already a personnal handicap system already set up that we
can adopt. Which will save us having to 're-invent the wheel'!Any constructive thoughts/ideas are most welcome
Thanks
Peter Daigneault
Sailing Sec.-!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
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Hi Huw,
Thanks for the question!
it was my pleasure, believe me. I have another. the +- adjustments for the
PY system work because the elapsed time is propotional to the rating but
would it work for all rating systems, or, woudl we need a multiplacative
adjustment... thinking aloud; possible (hopefully) talking nonsense -
worried about non-linear schemes...
Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com
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Hi Mike
Not sure if you have picked up the thread of the discussion correctly.
I am not advocating changing the method of calculating PY's for the annual
RYA Return.
In devising a Personal Handicap system, both Huw & I seem to have started
from the same point of using the principles of YR2.
To calculate a standard race time, it seemed to me that eliminating the
impact of the best sailors, was as important as eliminating the worst. Not
having a Masters in statistics :-))) I used common sense & excluded an
'arbitrary' top two & bottom two race times.
Re sensitivity, a lot depends on racing at your club in terms of the number
of entrants, the quality (crew skill factor) of sailors, the weather
conditions, etc etc etc.
The most important aspect of personal handicaps seems to be that everyone
who has introduced a system, has become one of the most popular people in
the club!
Sailors of all levels of ability are able to see changes in their general
skill levels. Introducing 'personal handicap' races using personal PY's,
creates massive interest, especially when the 'rock stars' don't win
everything. When we are all fighting to grow membership, declaring two sets
of results (golf is a prime example) ensures that the best continue to be
recognised as such, but the rest can also be in the chocolates from time to
time.
Regards
Ralph Tingle
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Croker [mailto:mdcroker@which.net]
Sent: 26 August 2004 21:39
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
Huw / Ralph
Interesting ideas re: eliminating results from PY calculation (e.g. top as
well as bottom). Any idea just how sensitive such decisions are?
Mike Croker
Lancing SC
-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Tingle [mailto:rat@attat.com]
Sent: 26 August 2004 17:06
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
Hi Huw
If you need a copy of the Sailwave file for the 2004 SGP, let me know & I
will get the office to email you a copy.
Re PH's I also followed the YR2 principles to calculate personal PN's but
eliminated the top & bottom % to calculate the standard times & also
included all boats, (ignoring their 'status' S, P, R etc)
My logic for excluding top as well as bottom results was to eliminate the
effect of extremes at both ends.
The problem of how many to exclude depends very much on the average number
of boats sailing in club races & the 'skewing' in terms of the quality of
crews racing.
Regards
Ralph Tingle
Rutland SC & Ogston SC
-----Original Message-----
From: Huw Pearce [mailto:huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk]
Sent: 26 August 2004 09:06
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
Peter,
As requested a copy of my spreadsheet in ZIPed state to save size. The
one
attached is the one used to analyse the 2003 Symmetric Grand Prix held at
Datchet Water SC. I have to do the analysis for the 2004 event soon.
It should get you started if you know Excel. The one for analysing the
club
Wednesday Evening series is much larger, we had this year 120 boats taking
part in the 15 race series, but uses the same methods & mechanism.
FYI - the version attached follows the RYA YR2 analysis guideline of using
the top two-thirds of the fleet. I have an issue with this which I am
willing to discuss if you are interested. To take account of my issue I
have
another version of my spreadsheet which allows one to discard the top &
bottom so many percent.
Please let me know what you think and how you get on.
Kind regards,
Huw
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Hi Ralph
Thanks for the clarification re: PY returns, I agree that the skill level
distribution in a fleet is relevant and now understand what you are trying
to achieve.
I also agree with you re: PH, but I find running 2 sets of results (using
average lap racing with varying start times) a pain in Sailwave. Must
improve my Excel skills!
Cheers
Mike Croker
Lancing SC
-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Tingle [mailto:rat@attat.com]
Sent: 27 August 2004 19:22
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
Hi Mike
Not sure if you have picked up the thread of the discussion correctly.
I am not advocating changing the method of calculating PY's for the annual
RYA Return.
In devising a Personal Handicap system, both Huw & I seem to have started
from the same point of using the principles of YR2.
To calculate a standard race time, it seemed to me that eliminating the
impact of the best sailors, was as important as eliminating the worst. Not
having a Masters in statistics :-))) I used common sense & excluded an
'arbitrary' top two & bottom two race times.
Re sensitivity, a lot depends on racing at your club in terms of the
number
of entrants, the quality (crew skill factor) of sailors, the weather
conditions, etc etc etc.
The most important aspect of personal handicaps seems to be that everyone
who has introduced a system, has become one of the most popular people in
the club!
Sailors of all levels of ability are able to see changes in their general
skill levels. Introducing 'personal handicap' races using personal PY's,
creates massive interest, especially when the 'rock stars' don't win
everything. When we are all fighting to grow membership, declaring two
sets
of results (golf is a prime example) ensures that the best continue to be
recognised as such, but the rest can also be in the chocolates from time
to
time.
Regards
Ralph Tingle
-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Croker [mailto:mdcroker@which.net]
Sent: 26 August 2004 21:39
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
Huw / Ralph
Interesting ideas re: eliminating results from PY calculation (e.g. top as
well as bottom). Any idea just how sensitive such decisions are?
Mike Croker
Lancing SC
-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Tingle [mailto:rat@attat.com]
Sent: 26 August 2004 17:06
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
Hi Huw
If you need a copy of the Sailwave file for the 2004 SGP, let me know &
I
will get the office to email you a copy.
Re PH's I also followed the YR2 principles to calculate personal PN's
but
eliminated the top & bottom % to calculate the standard times & also
included all boats, (ignoring their 'status' S, P, R etc)
My logic for excluding top as well as bottom results was to eliminate
the
effect of extremes at both ends.
The problem of how many to exclude depends very much on the average
number
of boats sailing in club races & the 'skewing' in terms of the quality
of
crews racing.
Regards
Ralph Tingle
Rutland SC & Ogston SC
-----Original Message-----
From: Huw Pearce [mailto:huw.pearce@bcs.org.uk]
Sent: 26 August 2004 09:06
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring system for personal handicaps
Peter,
As requested a copy of my spreadsheet in ZIPed state to save size. The
one
attached is the one used to analyse the 2003 Symmetric Grand Prix held
at
Datchet Water SC. I have to do the analysis for the 2004 event soon.
It should get you started if you know Excel. The one for analysing the
club
Wednesday Evening series is much larger, we had this year 120 boats
taking
part in the 15 race series, but uses the same methods & mechanism.
FYI - the version attached follows the RYA YR2 analysis guideline of
using
the top two-thirds of the fleet. I have an issue with this which I am
willing to discuss if you are interested. To take account of my issue I
have
another version of my spreadsheet which allows one to discard the top &
bottom so many percent.
Please let me know what you think and how you get on.
Kind regards,
Huw
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PH system will be available in 1.58 or 1.59 version of Sailwave.
Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com
colin@sailwave.com
Peter Daigneault wrote:
At Eastbourne, we are looking into the possability of running a personnal handicap system alongside the standard scoring system for our sailing results.
Is it possible for this to be done using Sailwave?
Is there already a personnal handicap system already set up that we can adopt. Which will save us having to 're-invent the wheel'!
Any constructive thoughts/ideas are most welcome
Thanks
Peter Daigneault
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