Ralph/Mike,
Many clubs allow competitors to change their boat on a race by race basis -
laser one race, fireball the next - and keep one set of results. Perhaps
I'm just being dim but this seems to knobble the PY scheme... What I'm
getting at is, if I automated YR2, could I get away with not catering for
this complication, or do so many clubs do it that it needs to be handled and
if so, what's the trick. Can't just do a base-rig adjustment because it's a
comletely different boat...
Colin J
···
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 18 April 2005 12:28
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave YardstickThanks Mike
Wish every other club gave as much thought to the subject as you.
There are too many clubs out there who think that the published
PYs are the finished article rather
than the starting point."which, strangely, no one complains about as it's used for most
of our handicap racing" That is
because you put some thought, empathy & time into the subject."The reality is I guess a suitable number, then use the above
multi-dimensional analysis to
rationalise the results ;)" Man after my own heart - COMMON SENSE
RULES - OK! (that gives my age
away)Regards
Ralph-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Croker [mailto:mdcroker@which.net]
Sent: 18 April 2005 12:01
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave YardstickRalph
Personal Handicaps (as published in LSC results) include local
'corrections'
to the PY numbers, as well as CSF assessments. For example, one of my
hobbyhorses is a Lancing Tidal Correction Factor (TCF) which is applied to
PY in addition to CSF for personal handicap races to give some
allowance for
the tidal conditions that we race in. (And no, I don't take
account of the
tidal stream at the time of the race, nor the wind strength, just give the
slower boats a bit of a helping hand).In other words, the Lancing PH #s can be thought of as comprising 4
elements:1) PY as published by the RYA - which, strangely, no one
complains about as
it's used for most of our handicap racing
2) Lancing TCF - almost sold the idea to the Sailing Committee on
the basis
of PY #'s are based on returns from many non-tidal locations
3) CSF - 'need to know' basis only - I might discuss these with the Fleet
Captains before the PH races begin - especially for the Topper class where
juniors can improve rapidly
4) Boat class to boat class adjustments for local conditions
(ignoring TCF)The reality is I guess a suitable number, then use the above
multi-dimensional analysis to rationalise the resultsMike Croker
Lancing SC-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 15 April 2005 17:40
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave YardstickAgree with you Mike
Specimen 1 is quite right but when is there ever a balancing out in one of
the classes within a club
handicap race?
Because 'sufficient' has to be subjective, I tend to take the view that if
there is some sort of
personal handicap system, why not use it.Interested to hear that you don't broadcast CSF but are happy to publish
personal handicaps - are
they not the one & the same?PS: no need to apologise for being pedant.
I am one of the breed who accepts that he is not perfect ;-(
and have even committed the cardinal sin of apologising to the fleet when
the start sequence had
been messed up & I had raise the postponement flagRegards
Ralph-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Croker [mailto:mdcroker@which.net]
Sent: 14 April 2005 23:58
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave YardstickRalph
Sorry to be a pedant, but to quote YR2 (Specimen Race 1):"If there is a sufficient number of boats in a class racing for
the effects
of different
Crew Skill Factors (CSF) to balance out, then steps 13 and 14 may
be omitted
for that class. In this example this is assumed to be the case,
so column n
is
ignored and the PC, entered in column o, is equal to the PI entered in
column m.
However it would never be wrong to include steps 13 and 14 (see Specimen
Race Two)."so what's sufficient then - 10, 15?
Key point is that CSF can be ignored in certain circumstances..... but I
think you are correct in saying that in most cases it is important, just
rather controversial - which is why I don't broadcast them around LSC, but
the brighter ones can probably look at their personal handicap and make a
good guessMike Croker
Lancing SC-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Tingle [mailto:rat@attat.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 13:03
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave YardstickSorry Colin - No
Without going into detail, YR2 recommends
- re-assess PNs based on actual results on the same basis of the specimens
- eliminate CSF from the re-assessment to produce a 'true' boat PN
- decide what number to recommend for the Annual return at the end of the
year (usually the result
of your calculations throughout the year)It's quite some time since I was results officer so please forgive me if I
have missed something
out.
CSF is a VERY significant factor which must be eliminated. It is very
noticeable that clubs who have
a flourishing class, including the best sailors Nationally, quite often
recommend a lower PN than
other clubs for that class, especially when they are using the 'educated
guestimate' method. This
can arise when one of these best sailors always tends to pick up
chocolates
in a club regattaI suppose I should not be saying this but your 'big button' plans
sound very
good but not sure how
CSF would be eliminated. If CSF elimination is not practical (as
I suspect)
the raw stats would need
to be much more representative of GH racing in GBR than the
current level of
returns - I hear it has
been less than 40% of all clubs ;-((On the subject of SW generally, apart from producing the best results
system, are you inventing a
new language??
Big B's is fairly self explanatory but where does coal face fit in to the
alpha, beta system? I know
you sail in Wales, which was infamous for its miners & coalfields & the
Welsh thrashed England at
rugby (for a change) but hope this is not a reverse takeover of
the UK ;-))Keep up the good work
Ralph-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 12:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave YardstickHi Ralph,
> Just to confirm - Annual Returns MUST be after eliminating the
> effect of crew skill factor.Does that mean you can do a return from scratch using the raw results
(initial-rating,class,elapsed) without reference to any intermediate
calculated ratings and without reference to CSFs themselves.i.e. rather then eliminate effects of CSF you can reclaulate using the raw
data and ignore them.Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com>
> For those who are not sure how to eliminate the impact of a very
> good sailor racing against a poor
> one (crew skill factor), this is one of the benefits of having a
> personal handicap system.
>
> The only other alternative to establishing a CSF is calling a
> meeting of the club 'sages' who are
> locked away & not let out until the white smoke rises from the
> chimney, to signify that a ranking
> list has been arrived at.
>
> Apologies to the other Catholics amongst us but couldn't resist
> making the comparison
>
> Regards
> Ralph
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
> Sent: 14 April 2005 11:16
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
>
>
>
> Hi Terry,
>
> Believe it or not its on the todo list. The plan is to have a nice big
> button somewhere that says "send results to Sailwave" - one click
> that's it.
> I then intend to do some simple stats (something that runs once a
> day on teh
> server) and make the results available as a downloading rating file -
> probably per country and/or international in scope. This could
include a
> 'sailwave' return to the RYA. The only thing I'm confused about
> is whether
> or not RYA returns are independent of "crew skill factors" (See
> YR2) or not.
> Hopefully they are.
>
> Regards,
> Colin J
> www.sailwave.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Terry [mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
> > Sent: 14 April 2005 10:52
> > To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
> >
> >
> >
> > Every year when I view the PY numbers published by the RYA it
> seems there
> > are less boats listed. As per previous mails our club has adopted an
> > alternate method to calculate the club handicap with. I get the
> impression
> > that many other clubs are also no longer using the PY.
> >
> > Having quickly read through how PY numbers are derived at, the
> > process seems
> > rather complex, (clubs having to submit a whole bunch of
> > information etc. I
> > get the impression that many clubs that do use the PY system do
> not bother
> > submitting the data back to the RYA for future PY ratings to
be updated.
> >
> > I was therefore thinking that with the wonders of modern
technology (and
> > Colin's programming ability) Sailwave could easily be adapted
> so that when
> > race results are published, an option is given to also upload the
> > results to
> > a sailwave server on the Web. (or perhaps also a function to
submit race
> > results to the RYA)
> >
> > The server then holds all this information and at the end of the year
> > calculates a SY (Sailwave Yardstick) and makes this file available for
> > download to sailwave users (and possibly also to other programs)
> >
> > I would suggest trying to use the same calculations used to derive PY
> > numbers for this so that figures produced by both PY and SY
> could be mixed
> > and matched.
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
> > Regards
> > Terry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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