Scoring system

Imported from Yahoo
1

I am a new member to SUG but have been using sailwave for a couple of
years, both for our regional windsurfing series and for RYA Team 15
(Junior Club) results. I think it is a cracking program and wouldn't
use anything else.

Have just downloaded the latest version and find the scoring system
cannot be set to sort series ties as per appendix B - rule B8.8 (a 1).
this breaks ties using best discard.

Am I missing something or is this a change which will be made in the
next version?

Geoff

2

How weird!
Appendix A (dinghies & Yachts) got rid of this method many years ago.
I have a copy of 1997 - 2000 RRS & it had been dropped then.

It would seem to be that App B has been significantly expanded this time & the lowest discard has
been brought back just for boards. (This will please those who still believe that lowest discard is
the right way to break ties!!)

Suggest you get down on both knees & kiss Colin's feet, otherwise you have a significant problem

Regards
Ralph Tingle

···

-----Original Message-----
From: no1greyhound [mailto:geoff.pook@rya-online.net]
Sent: 12 April 2005 20:46
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring system

I am a new member to SUG but have been using sailwave for a couple of
years, both for our regional windsurfing series and for RYA Team 15
(Junior Club) results. I think it is a cracking program and wouldn't
use anything else.

Have just downloaded the latest version and find the scoring system
cannot be set to sort series ties as per appendix B - rule B8.8 (a 1).
this breaks ties using best discard.

Am I missing something or is this a change which will be made in the
next version?

Geoff

-!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
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3

Wierd indeed!
I believe that a discard is a discard and should remain so. But
unfortunately I don't sit on the rules committee so I have to go
along with what they say.

Knee pads on and kiss-proof lipstick applied. Adopting grovelling
mode forthwith.

Cheers Geoff

How weird!
Appendix A (dinghies & Yachts) got rid of this method many years

ago.

I have a copy of 1997 - 2000 RRS & it had been dropped then.

It would seem to be that App B has been significantly expanded this

time & the lowest discard has

been brought back just for boards. (This will please those who

still believe that lowest discard is

the right way to break ties!!)

Suggest you get down on both knees & kiss Colin's feet, otherwise

you have a significant problem

Regards
Ralph Tingle

From: no1greyhound [mailto:geoff.pook@r…]
Sent: 12 April 2005 20:46
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring system

I am a new member to SUG but have been using sailwave for a couple

of

years, both for our regional windsurfing series and for RYA Team 15
(Junior Club) results. I think it is a cracking program and

wouldn't

use anything else.

Have just downloaded the latest version and find the scoring system
cannot be set to sort series ties as per appendix B - rule B8.8 (a

1).

this breaks ties using best discard.

Am I missing something or is this a change which will be made in the
next version?

Geoff

-!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-

http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@a...> wrote:

-----Original Message-----

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4

Hi Geoff,

Missed that. Thanks. Will sort out for next version (1.59).

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: no1greyhound [mailto:geoff.pook@rya-online.net]
Sent: 12 April 2005 20:46
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring system

I am a new member to SUG but have been using sailwave for a couple of
years, both for our regional windsurfing series and for RYA Team 15
(Junior Club) results. I think it is a cracking program and wouldn't
use anything else.

Have just downloaded the latest version and find the scoring system
cannot be set to sort series ties as per appendix B - rule B8.8 (a 1).
this breaks ties using best discard.

Am I missing something or is this a change which will be made in the
next version?

Geoff

-!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-

http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

--
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5

Every year when I view the PY numbers published by the RYA it seems there
are less boats listed. As per previous mails our club has adopted an
alternate method to calculate the club handicap with. I get the impression
that many other clubs are also no longer using the PY.

Having quickly read through how PY numbers are derived at, the process seems
rather complex, (clubs having to submit a whole bunch of information etc. I
get the impression that many clubs that do use the PY system do not bother
submitting the data back to the RYA for future PY ratings to be updated.

I was therefore thinking that with the wonders of modern technology (and
Colin's programming ability) Sailwave could easily be adapted so that when
race results are published, an option is given to also upload the results to
a sailwave server on the Web. (or perhaps also a function to submit race
results to the RYA)

The server then holds all this information and at the end of the year
calculates a SY (Sailwave Yardstick) and makes this file available for
download to sailwave users (and possibly also to other programs)

I would suggest trying to use the same calculations used to derive PY
numbers for this so that figures produced by both PY and SY could be mixed
and matched.

Just a thought.

Regards
Terry

6

Hi Terry,

Believe it or not its on the todo list. The plan is to have a nice big
button somewhere that says "send results to Sailwave" - one click that's it.
I then intend to do some simple stats (something that runs once a day on teh
server) and make the results available as a downloading rating file -
probably per country and/or international in scope. This could include a
'sailwave' return to the RYA. The only thing I'm confused about is whether
or not RYA returns are independent of "crew skill factors" (See YR2) or not.
Hopefully they are.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry [mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 10:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Every year when I view the PY numbers published by the RYA it seems there
are less boats listed. As per previous mails our club has adopted an
alternate method to calculate the club handicap with. I get the impression
that many other clubs are also no longer using the PY.

Having quickly read through how PY numbers are derived at, the
process seems
rather complex, (clubs having to submit a whole bunch of
information etc. I
get the impression that many clubs that do use the PY system do not bother
submitting the data back to the RYA for future PY ratings to be updated.

I was therefore thinking that with the wonders of modern technology (and
Colin's programming ability) Sailwave could easily be adapted so that when
race results are published, an option is given to also upload the
results to
a sailwave server on the Web. (or perhaps also a function to submit race
results to the RYA)

The server then holds all this information and at the end of the year
calculates a SY (Sailwave Yardstick) and makes this file available for
download to sailwave users (and possibly also to other programs)

I would suggest trying to use the same calculations used to derive PY
numbers for this so that figures produced by both PY and SY could be mixed
and matched.

Just a thought.

Regards
Terry

-!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
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7

PS: This is why I think the USSA method of doing returns is better than the
UK. In the US they just send the published results off
(class,elapsed,corrected) (and USSA accepts Sailwave format) and they are
integrated into the system. Currently this is done by a person (Darlene)
but it could easily be automated. The RYA method of making clubs do the
analysis is much harder for the clubs, especially since it's presented in
such an exotic manner - it really does look intimidating. Also it is a far
less rich source of information for the RYA to 'mine'.

CJ

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 11:16
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Terry,

Believe it or not its on the todo list. The plan is to have a nice big
button somewhere that says "send results to Sailwave" - one click
that's it.
I then intend to do some simple stats (something that runs once a
day on teh
server) and make the results available as a downloading rating file -
probably per country and/or international in scope. This could include a
'sailwave' return to the RYA. The only thing I'm confused about
is whether
or not RYA returns are independent of "crew skill factors" (See
YR2) or not.
Hopefully they are.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry [mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
> Sent: 14 April 2005 10:52
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
>
>
>
> Every year when I view the PY numbers published by the RYA it
seems there
> are less boats listed. As per previous mails our club has adopted an
> alternate method to calculate the club handicap with. I get the
impression
> that many other clubs are also no longer using the PY.
>
> Having quickly read through how PY numbers are derived at, the
> process seems
> rather complex, (clubs having to submit a whole bunch of
> information etc. I
> get the impression that many clubs that do use the PY system do
not bother
> submitting the data back to the RYA for future PY ratings to be updated.
>
> I was therefore thinking that with the wonders of modern technology (and
> Colin's programming ability) Sailwave could easily be adapted
so that when
> race results are published, an option is given to also upload the
> results to
> a sailwave server on the Web. (or perhaps also a function to submit race
> results to the RYA)
>
> The server then holds all this information and at the end of the year
> calculates a SY (Sailwave Yardstick) and makes this file available for
> download to sailwave users (and possibly also to other programs)
>
> I would suggest trying to use the same calculations used to derive PY
> numbers for this so that figures produced by both PY and SY
could be mixed
> and matched.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Regards
> Terry
>
>
>
>
>
> -!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
> http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
>
> Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
> sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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8

Hi Colin
Just to confirm - Annual Returns MUST be after eliminating the effect of crew skill factor.

For those who are not sure how to eliminate the impact of a very good sailor racing against a poor
one (crew skill factor), this is one of the benefits of having a personal handicap system.

The only other alternative to establishing a CSF is calling a meeting of the club 'sages' who are
locked away & not let out until the white smoke rises from the chimney, to signify that a ranking
list has been arrived at.

Apologies to the other Catholics amongst us but couldn't resist making the comparison :wink:

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 11:16
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Terry,

Believe it or not its on the todo list. The plan is to have a nice big
button somewhere that says "send results to Sailwave" - one click that's it.
I then intend to do some simple stats (something that runs once a day on teh
server) and make the results available as a downloading rating file -
probably per country and/or international in scope. This could include a
'sailwave' return to the RYA. The only thing I'm confused about is whether
or not RYA returns are independent of "crew skill factors" (See YR2) or not.
Hopefully they are.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Terry [mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 10:52
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Every year when I view the PY numbers published by the RYA it seems there
are less boats listed. As per previous mails our club has adopted an
alternate method to calculate the club handicap with. I get the impression
that many other clubs are also no longer using the PY.

Having quickly read through how PY numbers are derived at, the
process seems
rather complex, (clubs having to submit a whole bunch of
information etc. I
get the impression that many clubs that do use the PY system do not bother
submitting the data back to the RYA for future PY ratings to be updated.

I was therefore thinking that with the wonders of modern technology (and
Colin's programming ability) Sailwave could easily be adapted so that when
race results are published, an option is given to also upload the
results to
a sailwave server on the Web. (or perhaps also a function to submit race
results to the RYA)

The server then holds all this information and at the end of the year
calculates a SY (Sailwave Yardstick) and makes this file available for
download to sailwave users (and possibly also to other programs)

I would suggest trying to use the same calculations used to derive PY
numbers for this so that figures produced by both PY and SY could be mixed
and matched.

Just a thought.

Regards
Terry

-!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
Yahoo! Groups Links

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9

Hi Ralph,

Just to confirm - Annual Returns MUST be after eliminating the
effect of crew skill factor.

Does that mean you can do a return from scratch using the raw results
(initial-rating,class,elapsed) without reference to any intermediate
calculated ratings and without reference to CSFs themselves.

i.e. rather then eliminate effects of CSF you can reclaulate using the raw
data and ignore them.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

···

For those who are not sure how to eliminate the impact of a very
good sailor racing against a poor
one (crew skill factor), this is one of the benefits of having a
personal handicap system.

The only other alternative to establishing a CSF is calling a
meeting of the club 'sages' who are
locked away & not let out until the white smoke rises from the
chimney, to signify that a ranking
list has been arrived at.

Apologies to the other Catholics amongst us but couldn't resist
making the comparison :wink:

Regards
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 11:16
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Terry,

Believe it or not its on the todo list. The plan is to have a nice big
button somewhere that says "send results to Sailwave" - one click
that's it.
I then intend to do some simple stats (something that runs once a
day on teh
server) and make the results available as a downloading rating file -
probably per country and/or international in scope. This could include a
'sailwave' return to the RYA. The only thing I'm confused about
is whether
or not RYA returns are independent of "crew skill factors" (See
YR2) or not.
Hopefully they are.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry [mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
> Sent: 14 April 2005 10:52
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
>
>
>
> Every year when I view the PY numbers published by the RYA it
seems there
> are less boats listed. As per previous mails our club has adopted an
> alternate method to calculate the club handicap with. I get the
impression
> that many other clubs are also no longer using the PY.
>
> Having quickly read through how PY numbers are derived at, the
> process seems
> rather complex, (clubs having to submit a whole bunch of
> information etc. I
> get the impression that many clubs that do use the PY system do
not bother
> submitting the data back to the RYA for future PY ratings to be updated.
>
> I was therefore thinking that with the wonders of modern technology (and
> Colin's programming ability) Sailwave could easily be adapted
so that when
> race results are published, an option is given to also upload the
> results to
> a sailwave server on the Web. (or perhaps also a function to submit race
> results to the RYA)
>
> The server then holds all this information and at the end of the year
> calculates a SY (Sailwave Yardstick) and makes this file available for
> download to sailwave users (and possibly also to other programs)
>
> I would suggest trying to use the same calculations used to derive PY
> numbers for this so that figures produced by both PY and SY
could be mixed
> and matched.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Regards
> Terry
>
>
>
>
>
> -!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
> http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
>
> Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
> sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.8 - Release Date: 13/04/2005
>
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10

Glad to hear it is already on the cards

I then intend to do some simple stats (something that runs
once a day on the
server) and make the results available as a downloading rating file -
probably per country and/or international in scope.

You probably thought about this, but I would suggest (as done with other
Yardsticks) for the collected data to only be re-calculated once a year, as
changing the yardstick every time a new entry is made, could be very
confusing especially if you are trying to determine what your rating was at
the beginning of the season.

This could include a
'sailwave' return to the RYA. The only thing I'm confused
about is whether0
or not RYA returns are independent of "crew skill factors"
(See YR2) or not.
Hopefully they are.

Perhaps it would be worth negotiating with the RYA to design a Server for
them with a default format to collect information (.CSV) to make it simpler
for them to collect information (perhaps even adopt the USSA method) and
more importantly for clubs to submit information.

Regards
Terry

11

Sorry Colin - No
Without going into detail, YR2 recommends
- re-assess PNs based on actual results on the same basis of the specimens
- eliminate CSF from the re-assessment to produce a 'true' boat PN
- decide what number to recommend for the Annual return at the end of the year (usually the result
of your calculations throughout the year)

It's quite some time since I was results officer so please forgive me if I have missed something
out.
CSF is a VERY significant factor which must be eliminated. It is very noticeable that clubs who have
a flourishing class, including the best sailors Nationally, quite often recommend a lower PN than
other clubs for that class, especially when they are using the 'educated guestimate' method. This
can arise when one of these best sailors always tends to pick up chocolates in a club regatta

I suppose I should not be saying this but your 'big button' plans sound very good but not sure how
CSF would be eliminated. If CSF elimination is not practical (as I suspect) the raw stats would need
to be much more representative of GH racing in GBR than the current level of returns - I hear it has
been less than 40% of all clubs ;-((

On the subject of SW generally, apart from producing the best results system, are you inventing a
new language??
Big B's is fairly self explanatory but where does coal face fit in to the alpha, beta system? I know
you sail in Wales, which was infamous for its miners & coalfields & the Welsh thrashed England at
rugby (for a change) but hope this is not a reverse takeover of the UK ;-))

Keep up the good work
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 12:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Ralph,

Just to confirm - Annual Returns MUST be after eliminating the
effect of crew skill factor.

Does that mean you can do a return from scratch using the raw results
(initial-rating,class,elapsed) without reference to any intermediate
calculated ratings and without reference to CSFs themselves.

i.e. rather then eliminate effects of CSF you can reclaulate using the raw
data and ignore them.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

For those who are not sure how to eliminate the impact of a very
good sailor racing against a poor
one (crew skill factor), this is one of the benefits of having a
personal handicap system.

The only other alternative to establishing a CSF is calling a
meeting of the club 'sages' who are
locked away & not let out until the white smoke rises from the
chimney, to signify that a ranking
list has been arrived at.

Apologies to the other Catholics amongst us but couldn't resist
making the comparison :wink:

Regards
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 11:16
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Terry,

Believe it or not its on the todo list. The plan is to have a nice big
button somewhere that says "send results to Sailwave" - one click
that's it.
I then intend to do some simple stats (something that runs once a
day on teh
server) and make the results available as a downloading rating file -
probably per country and/or international in scope. This could include a
'sailwave' return to the RYA. The only thing I'm confused about
is whether
or not RYA returns are independent of "crew skill factors" (See
YR2) or not.
Hopefully they are.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry [mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
> Sent: 14 April 2005 10:52
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
>
>
>
> Every year when I view the PY numbers published by the RYA it
seems there
> are less boats listed. As per previous mails our club has adopted an
> alternate method to calculate the club handicap with. I get the
impression
> that many other clubs are also no longer using the PY.
>
> Having quickly read through how PY numbers are derived at, the
> process seems
> rather complex, (clubs having to submit a whole bunch of
> information etc. I
> get the impression that many clubs that do use the PY system do
not bother
> submitting the data back to the RYA for future PY ratings to be updated.
>
> I was therefore thinking that with the wonders of modern technology (and
> Colin's programming ability) Sailwave could easily be adapted
so that when
> race results are published, an option is given to also upload the
> results to
> a sailwave server on the Web. (or perhaps also a function to submit race
> results to the RYA)
>
> The server then holds all this information and at the end of the year
> calculates a SY (Sailwave Yardstick) and makes this file available for
> download to sailwave users (and possibly also to other programs)
>
> I would suggest trying to use the same calculations used to derive PY
> numbers for this so that figures produced by both PY and SY
could be mixed
> and matched.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Regards
> Terry
>
>
>
>
>
> -!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
> http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
>
> Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
> sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
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>
>
>
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12

Hi Terry,

Perhaps it would be worth negotiating with the RYA to design a Server for
them with a default format to collect information (.CSV) to make
it simpler
for them to collect information (perhaps even adopt the USSA method) and
more importantly for clubs to submit information.

Funnily enough I have previously suggested to them that the USSA method is
better because it's so easy for clubs to send in returns and it didn't go
down well at all... :slight_smile:

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

···

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13

Hi Ralph.

So the ratings reported to to the RYA are a function of elapsed time, class,
initial rating *and* a (subjective) crew skill factor. So that's the
fundamental difference between it and the US system, which just uses raw
results. I've always thought that the CSFs were (optionally) used to
generate the next ratings to use in the series but when doing the annual
returns the 'bias' added by the CSFs was removed; shows what I know :slight_smile: In
which case my 'big button' system will not be able to do RYA returns.

NB: By coalface I mean the version I'm working on now - i.e. at the
coalface. But as it happens I am dropping beta/alpha verison naming (cause
too much confusion). There will be just be sequential versions 1.59, 1.60,
1.61... They will all be available on the SUG and every now and again one
will make it to the website.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

From: Ralph Tingle [mailto:rat@attat.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 13:03
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Sorry Colin - No
Without going into detail, YR2 recommends
- re-assess PNs based on actual results on the same basis of the specimens
- eliminate CSF from the re-assessment to produce a 'true' boat PN
- decide what number to recommend for the Annual return at the
end of the year (usually the result
of your calculations throughout the year)

It's quite some time since I was results officer so please
forgive me if I have missed something
out.
CSF is a VERY significant factor which must be eliminated. It is
very noticeable that clubs who have
a flourishing class, including the best sailors Nationally, quite
often recommend a lower PN than
other clubs for that class, especially when they are using the
'educated guestimate' method. This
can arise when one of these best sailors always tends to pick up
chocolates in a club regatta

I suppose I should not be saying this but your 'big button' plans
sound very good but not sure how
CSF would be eliminated. If CSF elimination is not practical (as
I suspect) the raw stats would need
to be much more representative of GH racing in GBR than the
current level of returns - I hear it has
been less than 40% of all clubs ;-((

On the subject of SW generally, apart from producing the best
results system, are you inventing a
new language??
Big B's is fairly self explanatory but where does coal face fit
in to the alpha, beta system? I know
you sail in Wales, which was infamous for its miners & coalfields
& the Welsh thrashed England at
rugby (for a change) but hope this is not a reverse takeover of
the UK ;-))

Keep up the good work
Ralph

From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 12:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Ralph,

> Just to confirm - Annual Returns MUST be after eliminating the
> effect of crew skill factor.

Does that mean you can do a return from scratch using the raw results
(initial-rating,class,elapsed) without reference to any intermediate
calculated ratings and without reference to CSFs themselves.

i.e. rather then eliminate effects of CSF you can reclaulate using the raw
data and ignore them.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

>
> For those who are not sure how to eliminate the impact of a very
> good sailor racing against a poor
> one (crew skill factor), this is one of the benefits of having a
> personal handicap system.
>
> The only other alternative to establishing a CSF is calling a
> meeting of the club 'sages' who are
> locked away & not let out until the white smoke rises from the
> chimney, to signify that a ranking
> list has been arrived at.
>
> Apologies to the other Catholics amongst us but couldn't resist
> making the comparison :wink:
>
> Regards
> Ralph
>
>
>
> From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
> Sent: 14 April 2005 11:16
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
>
>
>
> Hi Terry,
>
> Believe it or not its on the todo list. The plan is to have a nice big
> button somewhere that says "send results to Sailwave" - one click
> that's it.
> I then intend to do some simple stats (something that runs once a
> day on teh
> server) and make the results available as a downloading rating file -
> probably per country and/or international in scope. This could
include a
> 'sailwave' return to the RYA. The only thing I'm confused about
> is whether
> or not RYA returns are independent of "crew skill factors" (See
> YR2) or not.
> Hopefully they are.
>
> Regards,
> Colin J
> www.sailwave.com
>
>
> > From: Terry [mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
> > Sent: 14 April 2005 10:52
> > To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
> >
> >
> >
> > Every year when I view the PY numbers published by the RYA it
> seems there
> > are less boats listed. As per previous mails our club has adopted an
> > alternate method to calculate the club handicap with. I get the
> impression
> > that many other clubs are also no longer using the PY.
> >
> > Having quickly read through how PY numbers are derived at, the
> > process seems
> > rather complex, (clubs having to submit a whole bunch of
> > information etc. I
> > get the impression that many clubs that do use the PY system do
> not bother
> > submitting the data back to the RYA for future PY ratings to
be updated.
> >
> > I was therefore thinking that with the wonders of modern
technology (and
> > Colin's programming ability) Sailwave could easily be adapted
> so that when
> > race results are published, an option is given to also upload the
> > results to
> > a sailwave server on the Web. (or perhaps also a function to
submit race
> > results to the RYA)
> >
> > The server then holds all this information and at the end of the year
> > calculates a SY (Sailwave Yardstick) and makes this file available for
> > download to sailwave users (and possibly also to other programs)
> >
> > I would suggest trying to use the same calculations used to derive PY
> > numbers for this so that figures produced by both PY and SY
> could be mixed
> > and matched.
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
> > Regards
> > Terry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
> > http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
> >
> > Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
> > sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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···

-----Original Message-----
-----Original Message-----
> -----Original Message-----
> > -----Original Message-----

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14

& the Welsh thrashed England at
rugby (for a change) but hope this is not a reverse takeover of
the UK ;-))

Historically we've always thrashed the English; there's just been a blip
over the past few years; but now we're back to our winning ways... :slight_smile:

CJ

···

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15

Hi Colin
Not sure if I have explained myself very well.

The Annual Return (sent in September) is a recommendation/opinion by a club re what next year's PN
(PY) should be for each class at their club, along with what the club has been using this year.
In order to provide some sort of weighting to the recommendation, clubs are requested to also report
the number of boats that have raced in each class & the total number of races for those boats (boat
races).
This means that a recommendation from a club which has a high number of boat races for that class,
will carry more weight than a club that has only a few boat races.

My previous email was describing how clubs could arrive at a recommendation.
This could be by best guestimate or supported by statistical analysis of races (which is where SW
could help)

IF YOU ARE NOT BORED YET, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS NEXT
The Returns are summarised at Eastleigh and presented to the Portsmouth Yardstick Advisory Group in
a form of
- Class by class analysis of the returns from clubs over the last 3 years
- statistical results intended to try & even out sudden surges & drops
The PYAG meet in January & use the chimney at Royal Thames to send out the white smoke when they
have finished.

One of the biggest weaknesses of the system is that if clubs don't send in a Return or send one in
but don't recommend a change (which sadly happens in a significant number if instances) or not
enough clubs think a PN should change, then the PN doesn't change!!

If SW can assist in the calculation so that it is easier for clubs to produce a statistically
supported return, automatically, we might get more returns and more movement.
Many clubs/sailors simply sit back & just criticise the system without realising that it is their
fault that the system does not reflect current opinion (but not everyone is like this in case you
are getting hot under the collar).

As you have gathered by now, the PY system is a subject close to my heart.
I accept that it is not perfect but then we are British & sometimes take even longer than a
multimassive oil tanker to tack unless it is in the Olympics :wink:

If every UK user lobbied clubs to send in Returns with realistic recommendations we would move
forward.
In reality, I have had many bar room discussions with severe critics of the system but when I ask
why they don't set their own PYs the answer is a cop out of "I am not going to put my neck on the
block"!!

Sorry for using SUG as a soap box but "I have a dream ........" as the great man once said

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 13:20
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Ralph.

So the ratings reported to to the RYA are a function of elapsed time, class,
initial rating *and* a (subjective) crew skill factor. So that's the
fundamental difference between it and the US system, which just uses raw
results. I've always thought that the CSFs were (optionally) used to
generate the next ratings to use in the series but when doing the annual
returns the 'bias' added by the CSFs was removed; shows what I know :slight_smile: In
which case my 'big button' system will not be able to do RYA returns.

NB: By coalface I mean the version I'm working on now - i.e. at the
coalface. But as it happens I am dropping beta/alpha verison naming (cause
too much confusion). There will be just be sequential versions 1.59, 1.60,
1.61... They will all be available on the SUG and every now and again one
will make it to the website.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Tingle [mailto:rat@attat.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 13:03
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Sorry Colin - No
Without going into detail, YR2 recommends
- re-assess PNs based on actual results on the same basis of the specimens
- eliminate CSF from the re-assessment to produce a 'true' boat PN
- decide what number to recommend for the Annual return at the
end of the year (usually the result
of your calculations throughout the year)

It's quite some time since I was results officer so please
forgive me if I have missed something
out.
CSF is a VERY significant factor which must be eliminated. It is
very noticeable that clubs who have
a flourishing class, including the best sailors Nationally, quite
often recommend a lower PN than
other clubs for that class, especially when they are using the
'educated guestimate' method. This
can arise when one of these best sailors always tends to pick up
chocolates in a club regatta

I suppose I should not be saying this but your 'big button' plans
sound very good but not sure how
CSF would be eliminated. If CSF elimination is not practical (as
I suspect) the raw stats would need
to be much more representative of GH racing in GBR than the
current level of returns - I hear it has
been less than 40% of all clubs ;-((

On the subject of SW generally, apart from producing the best
results system, are you inventing a
new language??
Big B's is fairly self explanatory but where does coal face fit
in to the alpha, beta system? I know
you sail in Wales, which was infamous for its miners & coalfields
& the Welsh thrashed England at
rugby (for a change) but hope this is not a reverse takeover of
the UK ;-))

Keep up the good work
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 12:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Ralph,

> Just to confirm - Annual Returns MUST be after eliminating the
> effect of crew skill factor.

Does that mean you can do a return from scratch using the raw results
(initial-rating,class,elapsed) without reference to any intermediate
calculated ratings and without reference to CSFs themselves.

i.e. rather then eliminate effects of CSF you can reclaulate using the raw
data and ignore them.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

>
> For those who are not sure how to eliminate the impact of a very
> good sailor racing against a poor
> one (crew skill factor), this is one of the benefits of having a
> personal handicap system.
>
> The only other alternative to establishing a CSF is calling a
> meeting of the club 'sages' who are
> locked away & not let out until the white smoke rises from the
> chimney, to signify that a ranking
> list has been arrived at.
>
> Apologies to the other Catholics amongst us but couldn't resist
> making the comparison :wink:
>
> Regards
> Ralph
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
> Sent: 14 April 2005 11:16
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
>
>
>
> Hi Terry,
>
> Believe it or not its on the todo list. The plan is to have a nice big
> button somewhere that says "send results to Sailwave" - one click
> that's it.
> I then intend to do some simple stats (something that runs once a
> day on teh
> server) and make the results available as a downloading rating file -
> probably per country and/or international in scope. This could
include a
> 'sailwave' return to the RYA. The only thing I'm confused about
> is whether
> or not RYA returns are independent of "crew skill factors" (See
> YR2) or not.
> Hopefully they are.
>
> Regards,
> Colin J
> www.sailwave.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Terry [mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
> > Sent: 14 April 2005 10:52
> > To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
> >
> >
> >
> > Every year when I view the PY numbers published by the RYA it
> seems there
> > are less boats listed. As per previous mails our club has adopted an
> > alternate method to calculate the club handicap with. I get the
> impression
> > that many other clubs are also no longer using the PY.
> >
> > Having quickly read through how PY numbers are derived at, the
> > process seems
> > rather complex, (clubs having to submit a whole bunch of
> > information etc. I
> > get the impression that many clubs that do use the PY system do
> not bother
> > submitting the data back to the RYA for future PY ratings to
be updated.
> >
> > I was therefore thinking that with the wonders of modern
technology (and
> > Colin's programming ability) Sailwave could easily be adapted
> so that when
> > race results are published, an option is given to also upload the
> > results to
> > a sailwave server on the Web. (or perhaps also a function to
submit race
> > results to the RYA)
> >
> > The server then holds all this information and at the end of the year
> > calculates a SY (Sailwave Yardstick) and makes this file available for
> > download to sailwave users (and possibly also to other programs)
> >
> > I would suggest trying to use the same calculations used to derive PY
> > numbers for this so that figures produced by both PY and SY
> could be mixed
> > and matched.
> >
> > Just a thought.
> >
> > Regards
> > Terry
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
> > http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
> >
> > Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
> > sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.8 - Release Date: 13/04/2005
> >
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.8 - Release Date: 13/04/2005
>
>
>
>
> -!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
>
> Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
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>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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>
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16

Hi Ralph,

It's YR2 9.3 I'm confused about.

9.3 "All allowances for variations from base rig
and crew skill factor, must be removed before making
a Yardstick Return recommending a Number."

I took this to mean that, if during the season you adjust numbers taking
into account CSFs, you cannot send these numbers to the RAY as a return,
rather you must eliminate the effects of CSF before making the return, which
in turn implies that the calculations can be repeated again, but this time
ignoring CSFs. This lead me to think that a valid RYA return can be done
with just the raw results - i.e. without reference to *any* CSFs. But I'm
confused now! :slight_smile:

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Tingle [mailto:rat@attat.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 16:39
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] RYA Yardstick Scheme

Hi Colin
Not sure if I have explained myself very well.

The Annual Return (sent in September) is a recommendation/opinion
by a club re what next year's PN
(PY) should be for each class at their club, along with what the
club has been using this year.
In order to provide some sort of weighting to the recommendation,
clubs are requested to also report
the number of boats that have raced in each class & the total
number of races for those boats (boat
races).
This means that a recommendation from a club which has a high
number of boat races for that class,
will carry more weight than a club that has only a few boat races.

My previous email was describing how clubs could arrive at a
recommendation.
This could be by best guestimate or supported by statistical
analysis of races (which is where SW
could help)

IF YOU ARE NOT BORED YET, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS NEXT
The Returns are summarised at Eastleigh and presented to the
Portsmouth Yardstick Advisory Group in
a form of
- Class by class analysis of the returns from clubs over the last 3 years
- statistical results intended to try & even out sudden surges & drops
The PYAG meet in January & use the chimney at Royal Thames to
send out the white smoke when they
have finished.

One of the biggest weaknesses of the system is that if clubs
don't send in a Return or send one in
but don't recommend a change (which sadly happens in a
significant number if instances) or not
enough clubs think a PN should change, then the PN doesn't change!!

If SW can assist in the calculation so that it is easier for
clubs to produce a statistically
supported return, automatically, we might get more returns and
more movement.
Many clubs/sailors simply sit back & just criticise the system
without realising that it is their
fault that the system does not reflect current opinion (but not
everyone is like this in case you
are getting hot under the collar).

As you have gathered by now, the PY system is a subject close to my heart.
I accept that it is not perfect but then we are British &
sometimes take even longer than a
multimassive oil tanker to tack unless it is in the Olympics :wink:

If every UK user lobbied clubs to send in Returns with realistic
recommendations we would move
forward.
In reality, I have had many bar room discussions with severe
critics of the system but when I ask
why they don't set their own PYs the answer is a cop out of "I am
not going to put my neck on the
block"!!

Sorry for using SUG as a soap box but "I have a dream ........"
as the great man once said

Regards
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 13:20
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Ralph.

So the ratings reported to to the RYA are a function of elapsed
time, class,
initial rating *and* a (subjective) crew skill factor. So that's the
fundamental difference between it and the US system, which just uses raw
results. I've always thought that the CSFs were (optionally) used to
generate the next ratings to use in the series but when doing the annual
returns the 'bias' added by the CSFs was removed; shows what I
know :slight_smile: In
which case my 'big button' system will not be able to do RYA returns.

NB: By coalface I mean the version I'm working on now - i.e. at the
coalface. But as it happens I am dropping beta/alpha verison
naming (cause
too much confusion). There will be just be sequential versions
1.59, 1.60,
1.61... They will all be available on the SUG and every now and again one
will make it to the website.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ralph Tingle [mailto:rat@attat.com]
> Sent: 14 April 2005 13:03
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
>
>
>
> Sorry Colin - No
> Without going into detail, YR2 recommends
> - re-assess PNs based on actual results on the same basis of
the specimens
> - eliminate CSF from the re-assessment to produce a 'true' boat PN
> - decide what number to recommend for the Annual return at the
> end of the year (usually the result
> of your calculations throughout the year)
>
> It's quite some time since I was results officer so please
> forgive me if I have missed something
> out.
> CSF is a VERY significant factor which must be eliminated. It is
> very noticeable that clubs who have
> a flourishing class, including the best sailors Nationally, quite
> often recommend a lower PN than
> other clubs for that class, especially when they are using the
> 'educated guestimate' method. This
> can arise when one of these best sailors always tends to pick up
> chocolates in a club regatta
>
> I suppose I should not be saying this but your 'big button' plans
> sound very good but not sure how
> CSF would be eliminated. If CSF elimination is not practical (as
> I suspect) the raw stats would need
> to be much more representative of GH racing in GBR than the
> current level of returns - I hear it has
> been less than 40% of all clubs ;-((
>
> On the subject of SW generally, apart from producing the best
> results system, are you inventing a
> new language??
> Big B's is fairly self explanatory but where does coal face fit
> in to the alpha, beta system? I know
> you sail in Wales, which was infamous for its miners & coalfields
> & the Welsh thrashed England at
> rugby (for a change) but hope this is not a reverse takeover of
> the UK ;-))
>
> Keep up the good work
> Ralph
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
> Sent: 14 April 2005 12:35
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
>
>
>
> Hi Ralph,
>
> > Just to confirm - Annual Returns MUST be after eliminating the
> > effect of crew skill factor.
>
> Does that mean you can do a return from scratch using the raw results
> (initial-rating,class,elapsed) without reference to any intermediate
> calculated ratings and without reference to CSFs themselves.
>
> i.e. rather then eliminate effects of CSF you can reclaulate
using the raw
> data and ignore them.
>
> Regards,
> Colin
> www.sailwave.com
>
> >
> > For those who are not sure how to eliminate the impact of a very
> > good sailor racing against a poor
> > one (crew skill factor), this is one of the benefits of having a
> > personal handicap system.
> >
> > The only other alternative to establishing a CSF is calling a
> > meeting of the club 'sages' who are
> > locked away & not let out until the white smoke rises from the
> > chimney, to signify that a ranking
> > list has been arrived at.
> >
> > Apologies to the other Catholics amongst us but couldn't resist
> > making the comparison :wink:
> >
> > Regards
> > Ralph
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
> > Sent: 14 April 2005 11:16
> > To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Terry,
> >
> > Believe it or not its on the todo list. The plan is to have
a nice big
> > button somewhere that says "send results to Sailwave" - one click
> > that's it.
> > I then intend to do some simple stats (something that runs once a
> > day on teh
> > server) and make the results available as a downloading rating file -
> > probably per country and/or international in scope. This could
> include a
> > 'sailwave' return to the RYA. The only thing I'm confused about
> > is whether
> > or not RYA returns are independent of "crew skill factors" (See
> > YR2) or not.
> > Hopefully they are.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Colin J
> > www.sailwave.com
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Terry [mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
> > > Sent: 14 April 2005 10:52
> > > To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Every year when I view the PY numbers published by the RYA it
> > seems there
> > > are less boats listed. As per previous mails our club has adopted an
> > > alternate method to calculate the club handicap with. I get the
> > impression
> > > that many other clubs are also no longer using the PY.
> > >
> > > Having quickly read through how PY numbers are derived at, the
> > > process seems
> > > rather complex, (clubs having to submit a whole bunch of
> > > information etc. I
> > > get the impression that many clubs that do use the PY system do
> > not bother
> > > submitting the data back to the RYA for future PY ratings to
> be updated.
> > >
> > > I was therefore thinking that with the wonders of modern
> technology (and
> > > Colin's programming ability) Sailwave could easily be adapted
> > so that when
> > > race results are published, an option is given to also upload the
> > > results to
> > > a sailwave server on the Web. (or perhaps also a function to
> submit race
> > > results to the RYA)
> > >
> > > The server then holds all this information and at the end
of the year
> > > calculates a SY (Sailwave Yardstick) and makes this file
available for
> > > download to sailwave users (and possibly also to other programs)
> > >
> > > I would suggest trying to use the same calculations used to
derive PY
> > > numbers for this so that figures produced by both PY and SY
> > could be mixed
> > > and matched.
> > >
> > > Just a thought.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Terry
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > -!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
> > > http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
> > >
> > > Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
> > > sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > No virus found in this incoming message.
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13/04/2005
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> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
> > http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
> >
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> > Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.8 - Release Date: 13/04/2005
> >
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> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.8 - Release Date: 13/04/2005
>
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17

Ralph
Sorry to be a pedant, but to quote YR2 (Specimen Race 1):

"If there is a sufficient number of boats in a class racing for the effects
of different
Crew Skill Factors (CSF) to balance out, then steps 13 and 14 may be omitted
for that class. In this example this is assumed to be the case, so column n
is
ignored and the PC, entered in column o, is equal to the PI entered in
column m.
However it would never be wrong to include steps 13 and 14 (see Specimen
Race Two)."

so what's sufficient then - 10, 15?

Key point is that CSF can be ignored in certain circumstances..... but I
think you are correct in saying that in most cases it is important, just
rather controversial - which is why I don't broadcast them around LSC, but
the brighter ones can probably look at their personal handicap and make a
good guess :wink:

Mike Croker
Lancing SC

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Tingle [mailto:rat@attat.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 13:03
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Sorry Colin - No
Without going into detail, YR2 recommends
- re-assess PNs based on actual results on the same basis of the specimens
- eliminate CSF from the re-assessment to produce a 'true' boat PN
- decide what number to recommend for the Annual return at the end of the
year (usually the result
of your calculations throughout the year)

It's quite some time since I was results officer so please forgive me if I
have missed something
out.
CSF is a VERY significant factor which must be eliminated. It is very
noticeable that clubs who have
a flourishing class, including the best sailors Nationally, quite often
recommend a lower PN than
other clubs for that class, especially when they are using the 'educated
guestimate' method. This
can arise when one of these best sailors always tends to pick up chocolates
in a club regatta

I suppose I should not be saying this but your 'big button' plans sound very
good but not sure how
CSF would be eliminated. If CSF elimination is not practical (as I suspect)
the raw stats would need
to be much more representative of GH racing in GBR than the current level of
returns - I hear it has
been less than 40% of all clubs ;-((

On the subject of SW generally, apart from producing the best results
system, are you inventing a
new language??
Big B's is fairly self explanatory but where does coal face fit in to the
alpha, beta system? I know
you sail in Wales, which was infamous for its miners & coalfields & the
Welsh thrashed England at
rugby (for a change) but hope this is not a reverse takeover of the UK ;-))

Keep up the good work
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 12:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Ralph,

Just to confirm - Annual Returns MUST be after eliminating the
effect of crew skill factor.

Does that mean you can do a return from scratch using the raw results
(initial-rating,class,elapsed) without reference to any intermediate
calculated ratings and without reference to CSFs themselves.

i.e. rather then eliminate effects of CSF you can reclaulate using the raw
data and ignore them.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

For those who are not sure how to eliminate the impact of a very
good sailor racing against a poor
one (crew skill factor), this is one of the benefits of having a
personal handicap system.

The only other alternative to establishing a CSF is calling a
meeting of the club 'sages' who are
locked away & not let out until the white smoke rises from the
chimney, to signify that a ranking
list has been arrived at.

Apologies to the other Catholics amongst us but couldn't resist
making the comparison :wink:

Regards
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 11:16
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Terry,

Believe it or not its on the todo list. The plan is to have a nice big
button somewhere that says "send results to Sailwave" - one click
that's it.
I then intend to do some simple stats (something that runs once a
day on teh
server) and make the results available as a downloading rating file -
probably per country and/or international in scope. This could include a
'sailwave' return to the RYA. The only thing I'm confused about
is whether
or not RYA returns are independent of "crew skill factors" (See
YR2) or not.
Hopefully they are.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry [mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
> Sent: 14 April 2005 10:52
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
>
>
>
> Every year when I view the PY numbers published by the RYA it
seems there
> are less boats listed. As per previous mails our club has adopted an
> alternate method to calculate the club handicap with. I get the
impression
> that many other clubs are also no longer using the PY.
>
> Having quickly read through how PY numbers are derived at, the
> process seems
> rather complex, (clubs having to submit a whole bunch of
> information etc. I
> get the impression that many clubs that do use the PY system do
not bother
> submitting the data back to the RYA for future PY ratings to be updated.
>
> I was therefore thinking that with the wonders of modern technology (and
> Colin's programming ability) Sailwave could easily be adapted
so that when
> race results are published, an option is given to also upload the
> results to
> a sailwave server on the Web. (or perhaps also a function to submit race
> results to the RYA)
>
> The server then holds all this information and at the end of the year
> calculates a SY (Sailwave Yardstick) and makes this file available for
> download to sailwave users (and possibly also to other programs)
>
> I would suggest trying to use the same calculations used to derive PY
> numbers for this so that figures produced by both PY and SY
could be mixed
> and matched.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Regards
> Terry
>
>
>
>
>
> -!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
> http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
>
> Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
> sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.8 - Release Date: 13/04/2005
>
--
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Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.8 - Release Date: 13/04/2005

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18

Agree with you Mike

Specimen 1 is quite right but when is there ever a balancing out in one of the classes within a club
handicap race?
Because 'sufficient' has to be subjective, I tend to take the view that if there is some sort of
personal handicap system, why not use it.

Interested to hear that you don't broadcast CSF but are happy to publish personal handicaps - are
they not the one & the same?

PS: no need to apologise for being pedant.
I am one of the breed who accepts that he is not perfect ;-(
and have even committed the cardinal sin of apologising to the fleet when the start sequence had
been messed up & I had raise the postponement flag :wink:

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Croker [mailto:mdcroker@which.net]
Sent: 14 April 2005 23:58
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Ralph
Sorry to be a pedant, but to quote YR2 (Specimen Race 1):

"If there is a sufficient number of boats in a class racing for the effects
of different
Crew Skill Factors (CSF) to balance out, then steps 13 and 14 may be omitted
for that class. In this example this is assumed to be the case, so column n
is
ignored and the PC, entered in column o, is equal to the PI entered in
column m.
However it would never be wrong to include steps 13 and 14 (see Specimen
Race Two)."

so what's sufficient then - 10, 15?

Key point is that CSF can be ignored in certain circumstances..... but I
think you are correct in saying that in most cases it is important, just
rather controversial - which is why I don't broadcast them around LSC, but
the brighter ones can probably look at their personal handicap and make a
good guess :wink:

Mike Croker
Lancing SC

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Tingle [mailto:rat@attat.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 13:03
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Sorry Colin - No
Without going into detail, YR2 recommends
- re-assess PNs based on actual results on the same basis of the specimens
- eliminate CSF from the re-assessment to produce a 'true' boat PN
- decide what number to recommend for the Annual return at the end of the
year (usually the result
of your calculations throughout the year)

It's quite some time since I was results officer so please forgive me if I
have missed something
out.
CSF is a VERY significant factor which must be eliminated. It is very
noticeable that clubs who have
a flourishing class, including the best sailors Nationally, quite often
recommend a lower PN than
other clubs for that class, especially when they are using the 'educated
guestimate' method. This
can arise when one of these best sailors always tends to pick up chocolates
in a club regatta

I suppose I should not be saying this but your 'big button' plans sound very
good but not sure how
CSF would be eliminated. If CSF elimination is not practical (as I suspect)
the raw stats would need
to be much more representative of GH racing in GBR than the current level of
returns - I hear it has
been less than 40% of all clubs ;-((

On the subject of SW generally, apart from producing the best results
system, are you inventing a
new language??
Big B's is fairly self explanatory but where does coal face fit in to the
alpha, beta system? I know
you sail in Wales, which was infamous for its miners & coalfields & the
Welsh thrashed England at
rugby (for a change) but hope this is not a reverse takeover of the UK ;-))

Keep up the good work
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 12:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Ralph,

Just to confirm - Annual Returns MUST be after eliminating the
effect of crew skill factor.

Does that mean you can do a return from scratch using the raw results
(initial-rating,class,elapsed) without reference to any intermediate
calculated ratings and without reference to CSFs themselves.

i.e. rather then eliminate effects of CSF you can reclaulate using the raw
data and ignore them.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

For those who are not sure how to eliminate the impact of a very
good sailor racing against a poor
one (crew skill factor), this is one of the benefits of having a
personal handicap system.

The only other alternative to establishing a CSF is calling a
meeting of the club 'sages' who are
locked away & not let out until the white smoke rises from the
chimney, to signify that a ranking
list has been arrived at.

Apologies to the other Catholics amongst us but couldn't resist
making the comparison :wink:

Regards
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 11:16
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Terry,

Believe it or not its on the todo list. The plan is to have a nice big
button somewhere that says "send results to Sailwave" - one click
that's it.
I then intend to do some simple stats (something that runs once a
day on teh
server) and make the results available as a downloading rating file -
probably per country and/or international in scope. This could include a
'sailwave' return to the RYA. The only thing I'm confused about
is whether
or not RYA returns are independent of "crew skill factors" (See
YR2) or not.
Hopefully they are.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry [mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
> Sent: 14 April 2005 10:52
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
>
>
>
> Every year when I view the PY numbers published by the RYA it
seems there
> are less boats listed. As per previous mails our club has adopted an
> alternate method to calculate the club handicap with. I get the
impression
> that many other clubs are also no longer using the PY.
>
> Having quickly read through how PY numbers are derived at, the
> process seems
> rather complex, (clubs having to submit a whole bunch of
> information etc. I
> get the impression that many clubs that do use the PY system do
not bother
> submitting the data back to the RYA for future PY ratings to be updated.
>
> I was therefore thinking that with the wonders of modern technology (and
> Colin's programming ability) Sailwave could easily be adapted
so that when
> race results are published, an option is given to also upload the
> results to
> a sailwave server on the Web. (or perhaps also a function to submit race
> results to the RYA)
>
> The server then holds all this information and at the end of the year
> calculates a SY (Sailwave Yardstick) and makes this file available for
> download to sailwave users (and possibly also to other programs)
>
> I would suggest trying to use the same calculations used to derive PY
> numbers for this so that figures produced by both PY and SY
could be mixed
> and matched.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Regards
> Terry
>
>
>
>
>
> -!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
> http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
>
> Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
> sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.8 - Release Date: 13/04/2005
>
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.8 - Release Date: 13/04/2005

-!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-

Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
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19

Ralph
Personal Handicaps (as published in LSC results) include local 'corrections'
to the PY numbers, as well as CSF assessments. For example, one of my
hobbyhorses is a Lancing Tidal Correction Factor (TCF) which is applied to
PY in addition to CSF for personal handicap races to give some allowance for
the tidal conditions that we race in. (And no, I don't take account of the
tidal stream at the time of the race, nor the wind strength, just give the
slower boats a bit of a helping hand).

In other words, the Lancing PH #s can be thought of as comprising 4
elements:

1) PY as published by the RYA - which, strangely, no one complains about as
it's used for most of our handicap racing
2) Lancing TCF - almost sold the idea to the Sailing Committee on the basis
of PY #'s are based on returns from many non-tidal locations
3) CSF - 'need to know' basis only - I might discuss these with the Fleet
Captains before the PH races begin - especially for the Topper class where
juniors can improve rapidly
4) Boat class to boat class adjustments for local conditions (ignoring TCF)

The reality is I guess a suitable number, then use the above
multi-dimensional analysis to rationalise the results :wink:

Mike Croker
Lancing SC

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 15 April 2005 17:40
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Agree with you Mike

Specimen 1 is quite right but when is there ever a balancing out in one of
the classes within a club
handicap race?
Because 'sufficient' has to be subjective, I tend to take the view that if
there is some sort of
personal handicap system, why not use it.

Interested to hear that you don't broadcast CSF but are happy to publish
personal handicaps - are
they not the one & the same?

PS: no need to apologise for being pedant.
I am one of the breed who accepts that he is not perfect ;-(
and have even committed the cardinal sin of apologising to the fleet when
the start sequence had
been messed up & I had raise the postponement flag :wink:

Regards
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Croker [mailto:mdcroker@which.net]
Sent: 14 April 2005 23:58
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Ralph
Sorry to be a pedant, but to quote YR2 (Specimen Race 1):

"If there is a sufficient number of boats in a class racing for the effects
of different
Crew Skill Factors (CSF) to balance out, then steps 13 and 14 may be omitted
for that class. In this example this is assumed to be the case, so column n
is
ignored and the PC, entered in column o, is equal to the PI entered in
column m.
However it would never be wrong to include steps 13 and 14 (see Specimen
Race Two)."

so what's sufficient then - 10, 15?

Key point is that CSF can be ignored in certain circumstances..... but I
think you are correct in saying that in most cases it is important, just
rather controversial - which is why I don't broadcast them around LSC, but
the brighter ones can probably look at their personal handicap and make a
good guess :wink:

Mike Croker
Lancing SC

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Tingle [mailto:rat@attat.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 13:03
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Sorry Colin - No
Without going into detail, YR2 recommends
- re-assess PNs based on actual results on the same basis of the specimens
- eliminate CSF from the re-assessment to produce a 'true' boat PN
- decide what number to recommend for the Annual return at the end of the
year (usually the result
of your calculations throughout the year)

It's quite some time since I was results officer so please forgive me if I
have missed something
out.
CSF is a VERY significant factor which must be eliminated. It is very
noticeable that clubs who have
a flourishing class, including the best sailors Nationally, quite often
recommend a lower PN than
other clubs for that class, especially when they are using the 'educated
guestimate' method. This
can arise when one of these best sailors always tends to pick up chocolates
in a club regatta

I suppose I should not be saying this but your 'big button' plans sound very
good but not sure how
CSF would be eliminated. If CSF elimination is not practical (as I suspect)
the raw stats would need
to be much more representative of GH racing in GBR than the current level of
returns - I hear it has
been less than 40% of all clubs ;-((

On the subject of SW generally, apart from producing the best results
system, are you inventing a
new language??
Big B's is fairly self explanatory but where does coal face fit in to the
alpha, beta system? I know
you sail in Wales, which was infamous for its miners & coalfields & the
Welsh thrashed England at
rugby (for a change) but hope this is not a reverse takeover of the UK ;-))

Keep up the good work
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 12:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Ralph,

Just to confirm - Annual Returns MUST be after eliminating the
effect of crew skill factor.

Does that mean you can do a return from scratch using the raw results
(initial-rating,class,elapsed) without reference to any intermediate
calculated ratings and without reference to CSFs themselves.

i.e. rather then eliminate effects of CSF you can reclaulate using the raw
data and ignore them.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

For those who are not sure how to eliminate the impact of a very
good sailor racing against a poor
one (crew skill factor), this is one of the benefits of having a
personal handicap system.

The only other alternative to establishing a CSF is calling a
meeting of the club 'sages' who are
locked away & not let out until the white smoke rises from the
chimney, to signify that a ranking
list has been arrived at.

Apologies to the other Catholics amongst us but couldn't resist
making the comparison :wink:

Regards
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 11:16
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Terry,

Believe it or not its on the todo list. The plan is to have a nice big
button somewhere that says "send results to Sailwave" - one click
that's it.
I then intend to do some simple stats (something that runs once a
day on teh
server) and make the results available as a downloading rating file -
probably per country and/or international in scope. This could include a
'sailwave' return to the RYA. The only thing I'm confused about
is whether
or not RYA returns are independent of "crew skill factors" (See
YR2) or not.
Hopefully they are.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry [mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
> Sent: 14 April 2005 10:52
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
>
>
>
> Every year when I view the PY numbers published by the RYA it
seems there
> are less boats listed. As per previous mails our club has adopted an
> alternate method to calculate the club handicap with. I get the
impression
> that many other clubs are also no longer using the PY.
>
> Having quickly read through how PY numbers are derived at, the
> process seems
> rather complex, (clubs having to submit a whole bunch of
> information etc. I
> get the impression that many clubs that do use the PY system do
not bother
> submitting the data back to the RYA for future PY ratings to be updated.
>
> I was therefore thinking that with the wonders of modern technology (and
> Colin's programming ability) Sailwave could easily be adapted
so that when
> race results are published, an option is given to also upload the
> results to
> a sailwave server on the Web. (or perhaps also a function to submit race
> results to the RYA)
>
> The server then holds all this information and at the end of the year
> calculates a SY (Sailwave Yardstick) and makes this file available for
> download to sailwave users (and possibly also to other programs)
>
> I would suggest trying to use the same calculations used to derive PY
> numbers for this so that figures produced by both PY and SY
could be mixed
> and matched.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Regards
> Terry
>
>
>
>
>
> -!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
> http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
>
> Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
> sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.8 - Release Date: 13/04/2005
>
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20

Thanks Mike
Wish every other club gave as much thought to the subject as you.
There are too many clubs out there who think that the published PYs are the finished article rather
than the starting point.

"which, strangely, no one complains about as it's used for most of our handicap racing" That is
because you put some thought, empathy & time into the subject.

"The reality is I guess a suitable number, then use the above multi-dimensional analysis to
rationalise the results ;)" Man after my own heart - COMMON SENSE RULES - OK! (that gives my age
away)

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Croker [mailto:mdcroker@which.net]
Sent: 18 April 2005 12:01
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Ralph
Personal Handicaps (as published in LSC results) include local 'corrections'
to the PY numbers, as well as CSF assessments. For example, one of my
hobbyhorses is a Lancing Tidal Correction Factor (TCF) which is applied to
PY in addition to CSF for personal handicap races to give some allowance for
the tidal conditions that we race in. (And no, I don't take account of the
tidal stream at the time of the race, nor the wind strength, just give the
slower boats a bit of a helping hand).

In other words, the Lancing PH #s can be thought of as comprising 4
elements:

1) PY as published by the RYA - which, strangely, no one complains about as
it's used for most of our handicap racing
2) Lancing TCF - almost sold the idea to the Sailing Committee on the basis
of PY #'s are based on returns from many non-tidal locations
3) CSF - 'need to know' basis only - I might discuss these with the Fleet
Captains before the PH races begin - especially for the Topper class where
juniors can improve rapidly
4) Boat class to boat class adjustments for local conditions (ignoring TCF)

The reality is I guess a suitable number, then use the above
multi-dimensional analysis to rationalise the results :wink:

Mike Croker
Lancing SC

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 15 April 2005 17:40
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Agree with you Mike

Specimen 1 is quite right but when is there ever a balancing out in one of
the classes within a club
handicap race?
Because 'sufficient' has to be subjective, I tend to take the view that if
there is some sort of
personal handicap system, why not use it.

Interested to hear that you don't broadcast CSF but are happy to publish
personal handicaps - are
they not the one & the same?

PS: no need to apologise for being pedant.
I am one of the breed who accepts that he is not perfect ;-(
and have even committed the cardinal sin of apologising to the fleet when
the start sequence had
been messed up & I had raise the postponement flag :wink:

Regards
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike Croker [mailto:mdcroker@which.net]
Sent: 14 April 2005 23:58
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Ralph
Sorry to be a pedant, but to quote YR2 (Specimen Race 1):

"If there is a sufficient number of boats in a class racing for the effects
of different
Crew Skill Factors (CSF) to balance out, then steps 13 and 14 may be omitted
for that class. In this example this is assumed to be the case, so column n
is
ignored and the PC, entered in column o, is equal to the PI entered in
column m.
However it would never be wrong to include steps 13 and 14 (see Specimen
Race Two)."

so what's sufficient then - 10, 15?

Key point is that CSF can be ignored in certain circumstances..... but I
think you are correct in saying that in most cases it is important, just
rather controversial - which is why I don't broadcast them around LSC, but
the brighter ones can probably look at their personal handicap and make a
good guess :wink:

Mike Croker
Lancing SC

-----Original Message-----
From: Ralph Tingle [mailto:rat@attat.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 13:03
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Sorry Colin - No
Without going into detail, YR2 recommends
- re-assess PNs based on actual results on the same basis of the specimens
- eliminate CSF from the re-assessment to produce a 'true' boat PN
- decide what number to recommend for the Annual return at the end of the
year (usually the result
of your calculations throughout the year)

It's quite some time since I was results officer so please forgive me if I
have missed something
out.
CSF is a VERY significant factor which must be eliminated. It is very
noticeable that clubs who have
a flourishing class, including the best sailors Nationally, quite often
recommend a lower PN than
other clubs for that class, especially when they are using the 'educated
guestimate' method. This
can arise when one of these best sailors always tends to pick up chocolates
in a club regatta

I suppose I should not be saying this but your 'big button' plans sound very
good but not sure how
CSF would be eliminated. If CSF elimination is not practical (as I suspect)
the raw stats would need
to be much more representative of GH racing in GBR than the current level of
returns - I hear it has
been less than 40% of all clubs ;-((

On the subject of SW generally, apart from producing the best results
system, are you inventing a
new language??
Big B's is fairly self explanatory but where does coal face fit in to the
alpha, beta system? I know
you sail in Wales, which was infamous for its miners & coalfields & the
Welsh thrashed England at
rugby (for a change) but hope this is not a reverse takeover of the UK ;-))

Keep up the good work
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 12:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Ralph,

Just to confirm - Annual Returns MUST be after eliminating the
effect of crew skill factor.

Does that mean you can do a return from scratch using the raw results
(initial-rating,class,elapsed) without reference to any intermediate
calculated ratings and without reference to CSFs themselves.

i.e. rather then eliminate effects of CSF you can reclaulate using the raw
data and ignore them.

Regards,
Colin
www.sailwave.com

For those who are not sure how to eliminate the impact of a very
good sailor racing against a poor
one (crew skill factor), this is one of the benefits of having a
personal handicap system.

The only other alternative to establishing a CSF is calling a
meeting of the club 'sages' who are
locked away & not let out until the white smoke rises from the
chimney, to signify that a ranking
list has been arrived at.

Apologies to the other Catholics amongst us but couldn't resist
making the comparison :wink:

Regards
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 14 April 2005 11:16
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick

Hi Terry,

Believe it or not its on the todo list. The plan is to have a nice big
button somewhere that says "send results to Sailwave" - one click
that's it.
I then intend to do some simple stats (something that runs once a
day on teh
server) and make the results available as a downloading rating file -
probably per country and/or international in scope. This could include a
'sailwave' return to the RYA. The only thing I'm confused about
is whether
or not RYA returns are independent of "crew skill factors" (See
YR2) or not.
Hopefully they are.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Terry [mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
> Sent: 14 April 2005 10:52
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [sailwave] Suggestion: Sailwave Yardstick
>
>
>
> Every year when I view the PY numbers published by the RYA it
seems there
> are less boats listed. As per previous mails our club has adopted an
> alternate method to calculate the club handicap with. I get the
impression
> that many other clubs are also no longer using the PY.
>
> Having quickly read through how PY numbers are derived at, the
> process seems
> rather complex, (clubs having to submit a whole bunch of
> information etc. I
> get the impression that many clubs that do use the PY system do
not bother
> submitting the data back to the RYA for future PY ratings to be updated.
>
> I was therefore thinking that with the wonders of modern technology (and
> Colin's programming ability) Sailwave could easily be adapted
so that when
> race results are published, an option is given to also upload the
> results to
> a sailwave server on the Web. (or perhaps also a function to submit race
> results to the RYA)
>
> The server then holds all this information and at the end of the year
> calculates a SY (Sailwave Yardstick) and makes this file available for
> download to sailwave users (and possibly also to other programs)
>
> I would suggest trying to use the same calculations used to derive PY
> numbers for this so that figures produced by both PY and SY
could be mixed
> and matched.
>
> Just a thought.
>
> Regards
> Terry
>
>
>
>
>
> -!- http://www.fastmail.fm/ -!- http://www.spampal.org/ -!-
> http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
>
> Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to:
> sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.8 - Release Date: 13/04/2005
>
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