Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

Imported from Yahoo
1

Hi everyone.

I'm new to this forum and apologise if this has been covered brfore. I have only six months to get next year's sailing programme sorted and am starting to panic. I want a ten race long series, you get one point for every boat you beat and after every race your PN is changed by -1 for every boat you beat and +1 for every boat that beats you. Can this be done using Sailwave?

Rgds

George Morris
Findhorn, Morayshire,

Weta 117

2

You might want to Google “progressive Echo” which is a system used
in Ireland to modify handicaps after every race. The clubs use
Sail100, but I am sure Sailwave could be developed to run this
system. Handicaps are adjusted so that each boat would have finished
in the middle of the fleet in the race just finished, but the change
in the handicap applied is capped;

Gordon
···

On 09/11/2011 09:09, George wrote:

Hi everyone.

          I'm new to this forum and apologise if this has been

covered brfore. I have only six months to get next year’s
sailing programme sorted and am starting to panic. I want
a ten race long series, you get one point for every boat
you beat and after every race your PN is changed by -1 for
every boat you beat and +1 for every boat that beats you.
Can this be done using Sailwave?

          Rgds

          George Morris
          Findhorn, Morayshire,

          Weta 117
3

Thanks for that. - Not having a Phd in advanced maths I sort of glazed over after Appendix 4. Starting with a simple question - how do you do a high point scoring system in Sailwave?

Rgds

George

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Davies <gordondavies@...> wrote:

You might want to Google "progressive Echo" which is a system used in
Ireland to modify handicaps after every race. The clubs use Sail100, but
I am sure Sailwave could be developed to run this system. Handicaps are
adjusted so that each boat would have finished in the middle of the
fleet in the race just finished, but the change in the handicap applied
is capped;

Gordon

  On 09/11/2011 09:09, George wrote:
>
> Hi everyone.
>
> I'm new to this forum and apologise if this has been covered brfore. I
> have only six months to get next year's sailing programme sorted and
> am starting to panic. I want a ten race long series, you get one point
> for every boat you beat and after every race your PN is changed by -1
> for every boat you beat and +1 for every boat that beats you. Can this
> be done using Sailwave?
>
> Rgds
>
> George Morris
> Findhorn, Morayshire,
>
> Weta 117
>
>

4

Hi George,

There is a box to tick in the “User Interface” dialogue box, accessible from the Setup menu, then you will have the option to select “High Point” in the Scoring System dialogue.

Ian Day

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George
Sent: 09 November 2011 12:29
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

Thanks for that. - Not having a Phd in advanced maths I sort of glazed over after Appendix 4. Starting with a simple question - how do you do a high point scoring system in Sailwave?

Rgds

George

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Gordon Davies <gordondavies@…> wrote:

You might want to Google “progressive Echo” which is a system used in
Ireland to modify handicaps after every race. The clubs use Sail100, but
I am sure Sailwave could be developed to run this system. Handicaps are
adjusted so that each boat would have finished in the middle of the
fleet in the race just finished, but the change in the handicap applied
is capped;

Gordon

On 09/11/2011 09:09, George wrote:

Hi everyone.

I’m new to this forum and apologise if this has been covered brfore. I
have only six months to get next year’s sailing programme sorted and
am starting to panic. I want a ten race long series, you get one point
for every boat you beat and after every race your PN is changed by -1
for every boat you beat and +1 for every boat that beats you. Can this
be done using Sailwave?

Rgds

George Morris
Findhorn, Morayshire,

Weta 117

5

Thanks - I found that but can’t make the system recognise my custom scoring system and I am not familiar with the listed system. I think I shall revert to paper and pencil!

Rgds

George.

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ian Day

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 12:35 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

Hi George,

There is a box to tick in the “User Interface” dialogue box, accessible from the Setup menu, then you will have the option to select “High Point” in the Scoring System dialogue.

** Ian Day**

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of George
Sent:
09 November 2011 12:29
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Re: Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

Thanks for that. - Not having a Phd in advanced maths I sort of glazed over after Appendix 4. Starting with a simple question - how do you do a high point scoring system in Sailwave?

Rgds

George

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , Gordon Davies <gordondavies@… > wrote:

You might want to Google “progressive Echo” which is a system used in
Ireland to modify handicaps after every race. The clubs use Sail100, but
I am sure Sailwave could be developed to run this system. Handicaps are
adjusted so that each boat would have finished in the middle of the
fleet in the race just finished, but the change in the handicap applied
is capped;

Gordon

On 09/11/2011 09:09, George wrote:

Hi everyone.

I’m new to this forum and apologise if this has been covered brfore. I
have only six months to get next year’s sailing programme sorted and
am starting to panic. I want a ten race long series, you get one point
for every boat you beat and after every race your PN is changed by -1
for every boat you beat and +1 for every boat that beats you. Can this
be done using Sailwave?

Rgds

George Morris
Findhorn, Morayshire,

Weta 117

6

Hi George,

Welcome to the Forum. I have developed a system that allows Sailwave to handle the progressive handicap. Basically it reads the sailwave file (xxxx.blw) and puts the results into an excel spreadsheet. You only setup the spreadsheet once based on the rules of progressive handicap you want to use. Once it has calculated the new handicap for each boat it writes this info back into the sailwave file and restarts Sailwave. This all happens in a few seconds. It allows you to change the method of the handicap by changing the formula within Excel. I currently have a Template which handles the Echo handicap but would be very easy to use the rules you describe. If you are interested in it and would like to take it further let me know.

Jon

···

On 9 November 2011 09:09, George gmorris@toucansurf.com wrote:

Hi everyone.

I’m new to this forum and apologise if this has been covered brfore. I have only six months to get next year’s sailing programme sorted and am starting to panic. I want a ten race long series, you get one point for every boat you beat and after every race your PN is changed by -1 for every boat you beat and +1 for every boat that beats you. Can this be done using Sailwave?

Rgds

George Morris
Findhorn, Morayshire,

Weta 117

–
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777

Skype “eskdale”

7

Hi Jon!

This is a good forum - a casual enquiry at lunchtime and three replies before tea!

Yes, I would love to try your program. My plan for our variable handicap series is that you get one point for every boat you beat. DNCs and DNFs probably score zero. In a ten boat fleet (about average for this series) you would thus get 9 points for winning and eight points for coming second. Your PN would be adjusted as follows: for every boat you beat one point comes off your PN and for every boat that beats you you get one back. Thus for winning you would have 9 points off your PN, for coming second you would have 7 points off your PN, sixth would have one point added and so on.

Rgds

George

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Jon Eskdale

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:25 PM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

Hi George,

Welcome to the Forum. I have developed a system that allows Sailwave to handle the progressive handicap. Basically it reads the sailwave file (xxxx.blw) and puts the results into an excel spreadsheet. You only setup the spreadsheet once based on the rules of progressive handicap you want to use. Once it has calculated the new handicap for each boat it writes this info back into the sailwave file and restarts Sailwave. This all happens in a few seconds. It allows you to change the method of the handicap by changing the formula within Excel. I currently have a Template which handles the Echo handicap but would be very easy to use the rules you describe. If you are interested in it and would like to take it further let me know.

Jon

On 9 November 2011 09:09, George gmorris@toucansurf.com > wrote:

Hi everyone.

I'm new to this forum and apologise if this has been covered brfore. I have only six months to get next year's sailing programme sorted and am starting to panic. I want a ten race long series, you get one point for every boat you beat and after every race your PN is changed by -1 for every boat you beat and +1 for every boat that beats you. Can this be done using Sailwave?

Rgds

George Morris
Findhorn, Morayshire,

Weta 117

–
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777

Skype “eskdale”

8

A small point - in our local high points system we give 1 point for
coming to the start area then 1 point for every boat beaten. A small
reward for turning up. So DNS, OCS and DNF is one point.

If ten boats come to starting area but 4 are DNS, DNF or OCS then

last boat to finish gets 5 points.

It does make a difference

Gordon
···

On 09/11/2011 17:14, George Morris wrote:

Hi Jon!

�

            This is a good forum - a

casual enquiry at lunchtime and three replies before
tea!

�

            Yes, I would love to try

your program. My plan for our variable handicap series
is that you get one point for every boat�you beat. DNCs
and DNFs probably score zero. In a ten boat fleet (about
average for this series) you would thus get 9 points for
winning and eight points for coming second. Your PN
would be adjusted as follows: for every boat you beat
one point comes off your PN�and for every boat that
beats you you get one back. Thus�for winning you would
have 9 points off your PN, for coming second you would
have 7 points off your PN, sixth would have�one
point�added and so on.

�

Rgds

�

George

            ----- Original Message

From:
Jon Eskdale

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday,
November 09, 2011 1:25 PM

Subject: Re:
[sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

�

Hi George,

�

              Welcome to the Forum.� I have developed a system

that allows Sailwave to handle the progressive
handicap.� Basically it reads the sailwave file
(xxxx.blw) and puts the results into an excel
spreadsheet.� You only setup the spreadsheet once
based on the rules of progressive handicap you want to
use.� Once it has calculated the new handicap for each
boat it writes this info back into the sailwave file
and restarts Sailwave.� This all happens in a few
seconds.� It allows you to change the method of the
handicap by changing the formula within Excel.� I
currently have a Template which handles the Echo
handicap but would be very easy to use the rules you
describe.� If you are interested in it and would like
to take it further�let me know.

�

Jon

              On 9 November 2011 09:09, > > George <gmorris@toucansurf.com> > >                   wrote:

�
Hi everyone.

                          I'm new to this forum and apologise if

this has been covered brfore. I have only
six months to get next year’s sailing
programme sorted and am starting to panic.
I want a ten race long series, you get one
point for every boat you beat and after
every race your PN is changed by -1 for
every boat you beat and +1 for every boat
that beats you. Can this be done using
Sailwave?

                          Rgds

                          George Morris
                          Findhorn, Morayshire,

                          Weta 117

            --

            Jon Eskdale

07976 709777

Skype “eskdale”

9

Yes, I can see the sense in that,

rgds

George

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Gordon Davies

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 7:25 PM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

A small point - in our local high points system we give 1 point for coming to the start area then 1 point for every boat beaten. A small reward for turning up. So DNS, OCS and DNF is one point.

If ten boats come to starting area but 4 are DNS, DNF or OCS then last boat to finish gets 5 points.

It does make a difference

Gordon

On 09/11/2011 17:14, George Morris wrote:

Hi Jon!

This is a good forum - a casual enquiry at lunchtime and three replies before tea!

Yes, I would love to try your program. My plan for our variable handicap series is that you get one point for every boat you beat. DNCs and DNFs probably score zero. In a ten boat fleet (about average for this series) you would thus get 9 points for winning and eight points for coming second. Your PN would be adjusted as follows: for every boat you beat one point comes off your PN and for every boat that beats you you get one back. Thus for winning you would have 9 points off your PN, for coming second you would have 7 points off your PN, sixth would have one point added and so on.

Rgds

George

----- Original Message -----

From: Jon Eskdale

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:25 PM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

Hi George,

  Welcome to the Forum.  I have developed a system that allows Sailwave to handle the progressive handicap.  Basically it reads the sailwave file (xxxx.blw) and puts the results into an excel spreadsheet.  You only setup the spreadsheet once based on the rules of progressive handicap you want to use.  Once it has calculated the new handicap for each boat it writes this info back into the sailwave file and restarts Sailwave.  This all happens in a few seconds.  It allows you to change the method of the handicap by changing the formula within Excel.  I currently have a Template which handles the Echo handicap but would be very easy to use the rules you describe.  If you are interested in it and would like to take it further let me know.

Jon

On 9 November 2011 09:09, George gmorris@toucansurf.com wrote:

Hi everyone.

    I'm new to this forum and apologise if this has been covered brfore. I have only six months to get next year's sailing programme sorted and am starting to panic. I want a ten race long series, you get one point for every boat you beat and after every race your PN is changed by -1 for every boat you beat and +1 for every boat that beats you. Can this be done using Sailwave?

Rgds

George Morris
Findhorn, Morayshire,

  Weta 117

–
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777

Skype "eskdale"
10

The standard formula for points awarded under a simple high-point system is: POINTS = [BOATS_ENTERED+1] - FINISHING_PLACE . With that formula, the wording in rule A4.2 covers DSQs etc automatically. In a six-boat fleet, the 1st-place boat gets 6 points.

While we might talk about "boats beat" or "boats behind" in our conversations, those terms aren't precise enough for sailing instructions, whereas the formula is.

Mathematically, for a regatta (single entry and races on consecutive days) the standard Low Point System and a simple high-point system give the same results (except, obviously, with high-point more points is better). So, for a regatta I would never use the simple high-point system but would always use the default Low Point System in the rulebook since the results will be the same.

For a series longer than a regatta, the results can vary. In that case, rule A9 gives a good policy (but isn't worded so it will work for simple high-point scoring). Instead of the number of entered boats use the number of boats that came out to the starting area. Note that with a long series the number of boats that compete will vary from race to race. Low Point gives some advantage to the boats that race in races with fewer boats and the simple high-point system gives advantage to the boats that race in races with more boats. That is why there are a lot of other high-point systems - to minimize or "correct" the built-in biases of the Low Point and simple high-point systems.

Art

···

On 11/9/2011 11:45 AM, George Morris wrote:

Yes, I can see the sense in that,

rgds

George

   ----- Original Message -----
   From: Gordon Davies
   To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 7:25 PM
   Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

   A small point - in our local high points system we give 1 point for coming to the start area then 1 point for every boat beaten. A small reward for turning up. So DNS, OCS and DNF is one point.

   If ten boats come to starting area but 4 are DNS, DNF or OCS then last boat to finish gets 5 points.

   It does make a difference

   Gordon

   On 09/11/2011 17:14, George Morris wrote:

     Hi Jon!

     This is a good forum - a casual enquiry at lunchtime and three replies before tea!

     Yes, I would love to try your program. My plan for our variable handicap series is that you get one point for every boat you beat. DNCs and DNFs probably score zero. In a ten boat fleet (about average for this series) you would thus get 9 points for winning and eight points for coming second. Your PN would be adjusted as follows: for every boat you beat one point comes off your PN and for every boat that beats you you get one back. Thus for winning you would have 9 points off your PN, for coming second you would have 7 points off your PN, sixth would have one point added and so on.

     Rgds

     George
       ----- Original Message -----
       From: Jon Eskdale
       To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
       Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:25 PM
       Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

       Hi George,

       Welcome to the Forum. I have developed a system that allows Sailwave to handle the progressive handicap. Basically it reads the sailwave file (xxxx.blw) and puts the results into an excel spreadsheet. You only setup the spreadsheet once based on the rules of progressive handicap you want to use. Once it has calculated the new handicap for each boat it writes this info back into the sailwave file and restarts Sailwave. This all happens in a few seconds. It allows you to change the method of the handicap by changing the formula within Excel. I currently have a Template which handles the Echo handicap but would be very easy to use the rules you describe. If you are interested in it and would like to take it further let me know.

       Jon

       On 9 November 2011 09:09, George<gmorris@toucansurf.com> wrote:

         Hi everyone.

         I'm new to this forum and apologise if this has been covered brfore. I have only six months to get next year's sailing programme sorted and am starting to panic. I want a ten race long series, you get one point for every boat you beat and after every race your PN is changed by -1 for every boat you beat and +1 for every boat that beats you. Can this be done using Sailwave?

         Rgds

         George Morris
         Findhorn, Morayshire,

         Weta 117

       --
       Jon Eskdale
       07976 709777
       Skype "eskdale"

11

Thanks. I know the strengths and weaknesses of the different systems having administered the results for several years. The low point system suffers from the problem that anyone who has to count a DNC is out of the running (DNC might count 30 in a long series for which the average turnout is 10). We use number of STARTERS plus 2 for a DNC but that means that if only two boats start a DNC counts 4 which is probably better than any of the results the guy actually sailed. You could argue that you should give people enough discards and then the DNC is not a problem. HOWEVER: this year we are going to have a high point system and we are going to use it to drive a golf handicap system and as I don’t want to have to devote 20 hrs a week to doing this I want a computer program that will do it for me. Sailwave is not a bad system although it has many traps for the unwary and my particular problem is that I can’t find a way of making it do a high point score - but I will persevere until I get bored which may not be very long!,

rgds

George

···

Original Message -----

From:
Art Engel

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 8:59 PM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

The standard formula for points awarded under a simple high-point system
is: POINTS = [BOATS_ENTERED+1] - FINISHING_PLACE . With that formula,
the wording in rule A4.2 covers DSQs etc automatically. In a six-boat
fleet, the 1st-place boat gets 6 points.

While we might talk about “boats beat” or “boats behind” in our
conversations, those terms aren’t precise enough for sailing
instructions, whereas the formula is.

Mathematically, for a regatta (single entry and races on consecutive
days) the standard Low Point System and a simple high-point system give
the same results (except, obviously, with high-point more points is
better). So, for a regatta I would never use the simple high-point
system but would always use the default Low Point System in the rulebook
since the results will be the same.

For a series longer than a regatta, the results can vary. In that case,
rule A9 gives a good policy (but isn’t worded so it will work for simple
high-point scoring). Instead of the number of entered boats use the
number of boats that came out to the starting area. Note that with a
long series the number of boats that compete will vary from race to
race. Low Point gives some advantage to the boats that race in races
with fewer boats and the simple high-point system gives advantage to the
boats that race in races with more boats. That is why there are a lot of
other high-point systems - to minimize or “correct” the built-in biases
of the Low Point and simple high-point systems.

Art

On 11/9/2011 11:45 AM, George Morris wrote:

Yes, I can see the sense in that,

rgds

George

----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Davies
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

A small point - in our local high points system we give 1 point for coming to the start area then 1 point for every boat beaten. A small reward for turning up. So DNS, OCS and DNF is one point.

If ten boats come to starting area but 4 are DNS, DNF or OCS then last boat to finish gets 5 points.

It does make a difference

Gordon

On 09/11/2011 17:14, George Morris wrote:

Hi Jon!

This is a good forum - a casual enquiry at lunchtime and three replies before tea!

Yes, I would love to try your program. My plan for our variable handicap series is that you get one point for every boat you beat. DNCs and DNFs probably score zero. In a ten boat fleet (about average for this series) you would thus get 9 points for winning and eight points for coming second. Your PN would be adjusted as follows: for every boat you beat one point comes off your PN and for every boat that beats you you get one back. Thus for winning you would have 9 points off your PN, for coming second you would have 7 points off your PN, sixth would have one point added and so on.

Rgds

George
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Eskdale
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

Hi George,

Welcome to the Forum. I have developed a system that allows Sailwave to handle the progressive handicap. Basically it reads the sailwave file (xxxx.blw) and puts the results into an excel spreadsheet. You only setup the spreadsheet once based on the rules of progressive handicap you want to use. Once it has calculated the new handicap for each boat it writes this info back into the sailwave file and restarts Sailwave. This all happens in a few seconds. It allows you to change the method of the handicap by changing the formula within Excel. I currently have a Template which handles the Echo handicap but would be very easy to use the rules you describe. If you are interested in it and would like to take it further let me know.

Jon

On 9 November 2011 09:09, George<gmorris@toucansurf.com > wrote:

Hi everyone.

I’m new to this forum and apologise if this has been covered brfore. I have only six months to get next year’s sailing programme sorted and am starting to panic. I want a ten race long series, you get one point for every boat you beat and after every race your PN is changed by -1 for every boat you beat and +1 for every boat that beats you. Can this be done using Sailwave?

Rgds

George Morris
Findhorn, Morayshire,

Weta 117

–
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”

12

I wasn't thinking of the DNC problem as that is fairly easily fixed by saying DNC will score the same as DNS. Instead, I was thinking of the inherent nature of the simple high and Low Point systems.

Consider two boats - one finishes 3rd of 5 and the other finishes 6th of 11. Each is in the exact middle of their fleet and therefore had an "average" performance. You probably would want them to have somewhat equivalent scores. The Low Point System in the rulebook says the boat in the smaller fleet did much better (3 points vs. 6, which is what DSQ in the 5-boat fleet would be!). The Low Point System favors boats in smaller fleets. The simple high-point system says the boat in the larger fleet did better (6 points vs. 3). The simple high-point system favors boats in larger fleets. I think maybe they are equally fair and for a long series you would choose which one to use based on whether you want your bias to favor the races with fewer boats or the races with more boats.

Personally, I don't think either is fair enough to use for a long series (as I don't think either bias is fair) and I would go with one of the modified high-point systems that completely or partially eliminates the bias.

Golf Handicapping - Sailwave has a mechanism built in that will do golf handicapping for you BUT just not in the way you propose doing it. I suggest you consider using that if you are starting from scratch. If you are merely trying to automate what you have been doing for years then that probably isn't a viable option. Sailwave will calculate what a boat would have rated had she finished in some specific position (say 1st or last or somewhere in-between). You can then apply some percentage of the difference between that handicap and actual to come up with a new handicap. That would be different than you propose but presumably would be a lot simpler as it is built right into Sailwave. One of the users who actually uses that function could advise better on how to set it up if you wanted to go that route.

I find that Sailwave is not at all intuitive. There are a lot of functions that are hidden. One is high-point scoring. Look under SETUP>User Interface - check the box for "High point scoring". Then you can go to SETUP|Scoring systems|Race scoring and set up your scoring. You will have to write a formula - I think you want "(s+1)-p" (no quotes) but you'll have to check that. Putting your cursor over the box should give you the variable options. I think "s" is correct starters plus OCS, which I take it is what you would want (I believe that would be everyone who came to the starting area MINUS DNSers; not sure if you can add DNSers back in). Don't forget to define the scores to assign for the abbreviations (like DNS, DNF, etc). Others here will know more if you have problems. I make take a few hours of noodling around but I suspect you can save tens of hours later in the season.

Thanks. I know the strengths and weaknesses of the different systems

having administered the results for several years. The low point system
suffers from the problem that anyone who has to count a DNC is out of
the running (DNC might count 30 in a long series for which the average
turnout is 10). We use number of STARTERS plus 2 for a DNC but that
means that if only two boats start a DNC counts 4 which is probably
better than any of the results the guy actually sailed. You could argue
that you should give people enough discards and then the DNC is not a
problem. HOWEVER: this year we are going to have a high point system and
we are going to use it to drive a golf handicap system and as I don't
want to have to devote 20 hrs a week to doing this I want a computer
program that will do it for me. Sailwave is not a bad system although it
has many traps for the unwary and my particular problem is that I can't
find a way of making it do a high point score - but I will persevere
until I get bored which may not be very long!,

···

On 11/9/2011 1:49 PM, George Morris wrote:

rgds

George

    Original Message -----
   From: Art Engel
   To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
   Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 8:59 PM
   Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

   The standard formula for points awarded under a simple high-point system
   is: POINTS = [BOATS_ENTERED+1] - FINISHING_PLACE . With that formula,
   the wording in rule A4.2 covers DSQs etc automatically. In a six-boat
   fleet, the 1st-place boat gets 6 points.

   While we might talk about "boats beat" or "boats behind" in our
   conversations, those terms aren't precise enough for sailing
   instructions, whereas the formula is.

   Mathematically, for a regatta (single entry and races on consecutive
   days) the standard Low Point System and a simple high-point system give
   the same results (except, obviously, with high-point more points is
   better). So, for a regatta I would never use the simple high-point
   system but would always use the default Low Point System in the rulebook
   since the results will be the same.

   For a series longer than a regatta, the results can vary. In that case,
   rule A9 gives a good policy (but isn't worded so it will work for simple
   high-point scoring). Instead of the number of entered boats use the
   number of boats that came out to the starting area. Note that with a
   long series the number of boats that compete will vary from race to
   race. Low Point gives some advantage to the boats that race in races
   with fewer boats and the simple high-point system gives advantage to the
   boats that race in races with more boats. That is why there are a lot of
   other high-point systems - to minimize or "correct" the built-in biases
   of the Low Point and simple high-point systems.

   Art

   On 11/9/2011 11:45 AM, George Morris wrote:
   > Yes, I can see the sense in that,
   >
   > rgds
   >
   > George
   >
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: Gordon Davies
   > To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 7:25 PM
   > Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap
   >
   > A small point - in our local high points system we give 1 point for coming to the start area then 1 point for every boat beaten. A small reward for turning up. So DNS, OCS and DNF is one point.
   >
   > If ten boats come to starting area but 4 are DNS, DNF or OCS then last boat to finish gets 5 points.
   >
   > It does make a difference
   >
   > Gordon
   >
   > On 09/11/2011 17:14, George Morris wrote:
   >
   > Hi Jon!
   >
   > This is a good forum - a casual enquiry at lunchtime and three replies before tea!
   >
   > Yes, I would love to try your program. My plan for our variable handicap series is that you get one point for every boat you beat. DNCs and DNFs probably score zero. In a ten boat fleet (about average for this series) you would thus get 9 points for winning and eight points for coming second. Your PN would be adjusted as follows: for every boat you beat one point comes off your PN and for every boat that beats you you get one back. Thus for winning you would have 9 points off your PN, for coming second you would have 7 points off your PN, sixth would have one point added and so on.
   >
   > Rgds
   >
   > George
   > ----- Original Message -----
   > From: Jon Eskdale
   > To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
   > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:25 PM
   > Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap
   >
   > Hi George,
   >
   > Welcome to the Forum. I have developed a system that allows Sailwave to handle the progressive handicap. Basically it reads the sailwave file (xxxx.blw) and puts the results into an excel spreadsheet. You only setup the spreadsheet once based on the rules of progressive handicap you want to use. Once it has calculated the new handicap for each boat it writes this info back into the sailwave file and restarts Sailwave. This all happens in a few seconds. It allows you to change the method of the handicap by changing the formula within Excel. I currently have a Template which handles the Echo handicap but would be very easy to use the rules you describe. If you are interested in it and would like to take it further let me know.
   >
   > Jon
   >
   > On 9 November 2011 09:09, George<gmorris@toucansurf.com> wrote:
   >
   > Hi everyone.
   >
   > I'm new to this forum and apologise if this has been covered brfore. I have only six months to get next year's sailing programme sorted and am starting to panic. I want a ten race long series, you get one point for every boat you beat and after every race your PN is changed by -1 for every boat you beat and +1 for every boat that beats you. Can this be done using Sailwave?
   >
   > Rgds
   >
   > George Morris
   > Findhorn, Morayshire,
   >
   > Weta 117
   >
   > --
   > Jon Eskdale
   > 07976 709777
   > Skype "eskdale"
   >

13

This has all been very interesting- thanks for the help. It is particularly interesting that someone else finds Sailwave ‘not very intuitive and full of hidden functions’. It has occurred to me that one way to do this series might be to work it out as normal, Publish to WORD and then put the points in manually,

Rgds

George

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Art Engel

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 12:36 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

I wasn’t thinking of the DNC problem as that is fairly easily fixed by
saying DNC will score the same as DNS. Instead, I was thinking of the
inherent nature of the simple high and Low Point systems.

Consider two boats - one finishes 3rd of 5 and the other finishes 6th of
11. Each is in the exact middle of their fleet and therefore had an
“average” performance. You probably would want them to have somewhat
equivalent scores. The Low Point System in the rulebook says the boat in
the smaller fleet did much better (3 points vs. 6, which is what DSQ in
the 5-boat fleet would be!). The Low Point System favors boats in
smaller fleets. The simple high-point system says the boat in the larger
fleet did better (6 points vs. 3). The simple high-point system favors
boats in larger fleets. I think maybe they are equally fair and for a
long series you would choose which one to use based on whether you want
your bias to favor the races with fewer boats or the races with more boats.

Personally, I don’t think either is fair enough to use for a long series
(as I don’t think either bias is fair) and I would go with one of the
modified high-point systems that completely or partially eliminates the
bias.

Golf Handicapping - Sailwave has a mechanism built in that will do golf
handicapping for you BUT just not in the way you propose doing it. I
suggest you consider using that if you are starting from scratch. If you
are merely trying to automate what you have been doing for years then
that probably isn’t a viable option. Sailwave will calculate what a boat
would have rated had she finished in some specific position (say 1st or
last or somewhere in-between). You can then apply some percentage of the
difference between that handicap and actual to come up with a new
handicap. That would be different than you propose but presumably would
be a lot simpler as it is built right into Sailwave. One of the users
who actually uses that function could advise better on how to set it up
if you wanted to go that route.

I find that Sailwave is not at all intuitive. There are a lot of
functions that are hidden. One is high-point scoring. Look under
SETUP>User Interface - check the box for “High point scoring”. Then you
can go to SETUP|Scoring systems|Race scoring and set up your scoring.
You will have to write a formula - I think you want “(s+1)-p” (no
quotes) but you’ll have to check that. Putting your cursor over the box
should give you the variable options. I think “s” is correct starters
plus OCS, which I take it is what you would want (I believe that would
be everyone who came to the starting area MINUS DNSers; not sure if you
can add DNSers back in). Don’t forget to define the scores to assign for
the abbreviations (like DNS, DNF, etc). Others here will know more if
you have problems. I make take a few hours of noodling around but I
suspect you can save tens of hours later in the season.

On 11/9/2011 1:49 PM, George Morris wrote:

Thanks. I know the strengths and weaknesses of the different systems
having administered the results for several years. The low point system
suffers from the problem that anyone who has to count a DNC is out of
the running (DNC might count 30 in a long series for which the average
turnout is 10). We use number of STARTERS plus 2 for a DNC but that
means that if only two boats start a DNC counts 4 which is probably
better than any of the results the guy actually sailed. You could argue
that you should give people enough discards and then the DNC is not a
problem. HOWEVER: this year we are going to have a high point system and
we are going to use it to drive a golf handicap system and as I don’t
want to have to devote 20 hrs a week to doing this I want a computer
program that will do it for me. Sailwave is not a bad system although it
has many traps for the unwary and my particular problem is that I can’t
find a way of making it do a high point score - but I will persevere
until I get bored which may not be very long!,

rgds

George

Original Message -----
From: Art Engel
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 8:59 PM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

The standard formula for points awarded under a simple high-point system
is: POINTS = [BOATS_ENTERED+1] - FINISHING_PLACE . With that formula,
the wording in rule A4.2 covers DSQs etc automatically. In a six-boat
fleet, the 1st-place boat gets 6 points.

While we might talk about “boats beat” or “boats behind” in our
conversations, those terms aren’t precise enough for sailing
instructions, whereas the formula is.

Mathematically, for a regatta (single entry and races on consecutive
days) the standard Low Point System and a simple high-point system give
the same results (except, obviously, with high-point more points is
better). So, for a regatta I would never use the simple high-point
system but would always use the default Low Point System in the rulebook
since the results will be the same.

For a series longer than a regatta, the results can vary. In that case,
rule A9 gives a good policy (but isn’t worded so it will work for simple
high-point scoring). Instead of the number of entered boats use the
number of boats that came out to the starting area. Note that with a
long series the number of boats that compete will vary from race to
race. Low Point gives some advantage to the boats that race in races
with fewer boats and the simple high-point system gives advantage to the
boats that race in races with more boats. That is why there are a lot of
other high-point systems - to minimize or “correct” the built-in biases
of the Low Point and simple high-point systems.

Art

On 11/9/2011 11:45 AM, George Morris wrote:

Yes, I can see the sense in that,

rgds

George

----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Davies
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 7:25 PM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

A small point - in our local high points system we give 1 point for coming to the start area then 1 point for every boat beaten. A small reward for turning up. So DNS, OCS and DNF is one point.

If ten boats come to starting area but 4 are DNS, DNF or OCS then last boat to finish gets 5 points.

It does make a difference

Gordon

On 09/11/2011 17:14, George Morris wrote:

Hi Jon!

This is a good forum - a casual enquiry at lunchtime and three replies before tea!

Yes, I would love to try your program. My plan for our variable handicap series is that you get one point for every boat you beat. DNCs and DNFs probably score zero. In a ten boat fleet (about average for this series) you would thus get 9 points for winning and eight points for coming second. Your PN would be adjusted as follows: for every boat you beat one point comes off your PN and for every boat that beats you you get one back. Thus for winning you would have 9 points off your PN, for coming second you would have 7 points off your PN, sixth would have one point added and so on.

Rgds

George
----- Original Message -----
From: Jon Eskdale
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:25 PM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

Hi George,

Welcome to the Forum. I have developed a system that allows Sailwave to handle the progressive handicap. Basically it reads the sailwave file (xxxx.blw) and puts the results into an excel spreadsheet. You only setup the spreadsheet once based on the rules of progressive handicap you want to use. Once it has calculated the new handicap for each boat it writes this info back into the sailwave file and restarts Sailwave. This all happens in a few seconds. It allows you to change the method of the handicap by changing the formula within Excel. I currently have a Template which handles the Echo handicap but would be very easy to use the rules you describe. If you are interested in it and would like to take it further let me know.

Jon

On 9 November 2011 09:09, George<gmorris@toucansurf.com > wrote:

Hi everyone.

I’m new to this forum and apologise if this has been covered brfore. I have only six months to get next year’s sailing programme sorted and am starting to panic. I want a ten race long series, you get one point for every boat you beat and after every race your PN is changed by -1 for every boat you beat and +1 for every boat that beats you. Can this be done using Sailwave?

Rgds

George Morris
Findhorn, Morayshire,

Weta 117

–
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”

14

The hidden facilities are those that are not use that much. I was
finding that people were overwhelmed if everything was shown.

···

Cheers,
Colin J
Keep Sailwave Free

      This has all been very

interesting- thanks for the help. It is particularly
interesting that someone else finds Sailwave ‘not very
intuitive and full of hidden functions’. It has occurred to me
that one way to do this series might be to work it out as
normal, Publish to WORD and then put the points in manually,

Rgds

George

----- Original Message -----

From: Art Engel

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Thursday, November
10, 2011 12:36 AM

Subject: Re: [sailwave]
Series scoring, high point, variable handicap

        I wasn't thinking of the DNC problem as that is fairly

easily fixed by
saying DNC will score the same as DNS. Instead, I was
thinking of the
inherent nature of the simple high and Low Point systems.

        Consider two boats - one finishes 3rd of 5 and the other

finishes 6th of
11. Each is in the exact middle of their fleet and therefore
had an
“average” performance. You probably would want them to have
somewhat
equivalent scores. The Low Point System in the rulebook says
the boat in
the smaller fleet did much better (3 points vs. 6, which is
what DSQ in
the 5-boat fleet would be!). The Low Point System favors
boats in
smaller fleets. The simple high-point system says the boat
in the larger
fleet did better (6 points vs. 3). The simple high-point
system favors
boats in larger fleets. I think maybe they are equally fair
and for a
long series you would choose which one to use based on
whether you want
your bias to favor the races with fewer boats or the races
with more boats.

        Personally, I don't think either is fair enough to use for a

long series
(as I don’t think either bias is fair) and I would go with
one of the
modified high-point systems that completely or partially
eliminates the
bias.

        Golf Handicapping - Sailwave has a mechanism built in that

will do golf
handicapping for you BUT just not in the way you propose
doing it. I
suggest you consider using that if you are starting from
scratch. If you
are merely trying to automate what you have been doing for
years then
that probably isn’t a viable option. Sailwave will calculate
what a boat
would have rated had she finished in some specific position
(say 1st or
last or somewhere in-between). You can then apply some
percentage of the
difference between that handicap and actual to come up with
a new
handicap. That would be different than you propose but
presumably would
be a lot simpler as it is built right into Sailwave. One of
the users
who actually uses that function could advise better on how
to set it up
if you wanted to go that route.

        I find that Sailwave is not at all intuitive. There are a

lot of
functions that are hidden. One is high-point scoring. Look
under
SETUP|User Interface - check the box for “High point
scoring”. Then you
can go to SETUP|Scoring systems|Race scoring and set up your
scoring.
You will have to write a formula - I think you want
“(s+1)-p” (no
quotes) but you’ll have to check that. Putting your cursor
over the box
should give you the variable options. I think “s” is correct
starters
plus OCS, which I take it is what you would want (I believe
that would
be everyone who came to the starting area MINUS DNSers; not
sure if you
can add DNSers back in). Don’t forget to define the scores
to assign for
the abbreviations (like DNS, DNF, etc). Others here will
know more if
you have problems. I make take a few hours of noodling
around but I
suspect you can save tens of hours later in the season.

        On 11/9/2011 1:49 PM, George Morris wrote:
        > Thanks. I know the strengths and weaknesses of the

different systems
having administered the results for several years. The low
point system
suffers from the problem that anyone who has to count a DNC
is out of
the running (DNC might count 30 in a long series for which
the average
turnout is 10). We use number of STARTERS plus 2 for a DNC
but that
means that if only two boats start a DNC counts 4 which is
probably
better than any of the results the guy actually sailed. You
could argue
that you should give people enough discards and then the DNC
is not a
problem. HOWEVER: this year we are going to have a high
point system and
we are going to use it to drive a golf handicap system and
as I don’t
want to have to devote 20 hrs a week to doing this I want a
computer
program that will do it for me. Sailwave is not a bad system
although it
has many traps for the unwary and my particular problem is
that I can’t
find a way of making it do a high point score - but I will
persevere
until I get bored which may not be very long!,
>
> rgds
>
> George
>
>
> Original Message -----
> From: Art Engel
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 8:59 PM
> Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high point,
variable handicap
>
>
>
> The standard formula for points awarded under a simple
high-point system
> is: POINTS = [BOATS_ENTERED+1] - FINISHING_PLACE . With
that formula,
> the wording in rule A4.2 covers DSQs etc automatically.
In a six-boat
> fleet, the 1st-place boat gets 6 points.
>
> While we might talk about “boats beat” or “boats
behind” in our
> conversations, those terms aren’t precise enough for
sailing
> instructions, whereas the formula is.
>
> Mathematically, for a regatta (single entry and races
on consecutive
> days) the standard Low Point System and a simple
high-point system give
> the same results (except, obviously, with high-point
more points is
> better). So, for a regatta I would never use the simple
high-point
> system but would always use the default Low Point
System in the rulebook
> since the results will be the same.
>
> For a series longer than a regatta, the results can
vary. In that case,
> rule A9 gives a good policy (but isn’t worded so it
will work for simple
> high-point scoring). Instead of the number of entered
boats use the
> number of boats that came out to the starting area.
Note that with a
> long series the number of boats that compete will vary
from race to
> race. Low Point gives some advantage to the boats that
race in races
> with fewer boats and the simple high-point system gives
advantage to the
> boats that race in races with more boats. That is why
there are a lot of
> other high-point systems - to minimize or “correct” the
built-in biases
> of the Low Point and simple high-point systems.
>
> Art
>
> On 11/9/2011 11:45 AM, George Morris wrote:
> > Yes, I can see the sense in that,
> >
> > rgds
> >
> > George
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Gordon Davies
> > To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 7:25 PM
> > Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high
point, variable handicap
> >
> >
> >
> > A small point - in our local high points system we
give 1 point for coming to the start area then 1 point for
every boat beaten. A small reward for turning up. So DNS,
OCS and DNF is one point.
> >
> > If ten boats come to starting area but 4 are DNS,
DNF or OCS then last boat to finish gets 5 points.
> >
> > It does make a difference
> >
> > Gordon
> >
> > On 09/11/2011 17:14, George Morris wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi Jon!
> >
> > This is a good forum - a casual enquiry at
lunchtime and three replies before tea!
> >
> > Yes, I would love to try your program. My plan for
our variable handicap series is that you get one point for
every boat you beat. DNCs and DNFs probably score zero. In a
ten boat fleet (about average for this series) you would
thus get 9 points for winning and eight points for coming
second. Your PN would be adjusted as follows: for every boat
you beat one point comes off your PN and for every boat that
beats you you get one back. Thus for winning you would have
9 points off your PN, for coming second you would have 7
points off your PN, sixth would have one point added and so
on.
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> > George
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Jon Eskdale
> > To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 1:25 PM
> > Subject: Re: [sailwave] Series scoring, high
point, variable handicap
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi George,
> >
> > Welcome to the Forum. I have developed a system
that allows Sailwave to handle the progressive handicap.
Basically it reads the sailwave file (xxxx.blw) and puts the
results into an excel spreadsheet. You only setup the
spreadsheet once based on the rules of progressive handicap
you want to use. Once it has calculated the new handicap for
each boat it writes this info back into the sailwave file
and restarts Sailwave. This all happens in a few seconds. It
allows you to change the method of the handicap by changing
the formula within Excel. I currently have a Template which
handles the Echo handicap but would be very easy to use the
rules you describe. If you are interested in it and would
like to take it further let me know.
> >
> > Jon
> >
> >
> > On 9 November 2011 09:09, George<gmorris@toucansurf.com >
wrote:
> >
> >
> > Hi everyone.
> >
> > I’m new to this forum and apologise if this has
been covered brfore. I have only six months to get next
year’s sailing programme sorted and am starting to panic. I
want a ten race long series, you get one point for every
boat you beat and after every race your PN is changed by -1
for every boat you beat and +1 for every boat that beats
you. Can this be done using Sailwave?
> >
> > Rgds
> >
> > George Morris
> > Findhorn, Morayshire,
> >
> > Weta 117
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > –
> > Jon Eskdale
> > 07976 709777
> > Skype “eskdale”
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>

      No virus

found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.1869 / Virus Database: 2092/4606 - Release
Date: 11/09/11

15

Jon,
We would like to try your personnel handicap system for use with Sailwave. How can we try it/download the program?
Ken Durward
Clayton Bay Boat Club
South Australia

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Jon Eskdale <jon@...> wrote:

Hi George,

Welcome to the Forum. I have developed a system that allows Sailwave to
handle the progressive handicap. Basically it reads the sailwave file
(xxxx.blw) and puts the results into an excel spreadsheet. You only setup
the spreadsheet once based on the rules of progressive handicap you want to
use. Once it has calculated the new handicap for each boat it writes this
info back into the sailwave file and restarts Sailwave. This all happens
in a few seconds. It allows you to change the method of the handicap by
changing the formula within Excel. I currently have a Template which
handles the Echo handicap but would be very easy to use the rules you
describe. If you are interested in it and would like to take it
further let me know.

Jon

On 9 November 2011 09:09, George <gmorris@...> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Hi everyone.
>
> I'm new to this forum and apologise if this has been covered brfore. I
> have only six months to get next year's sailing programme sorted and am
> starting to panic. I want a ten race long series, you get one point for
> every boat you beat and after every race your PN is changed by -1 for every
> boat you beat and +1 for every boat that beats you. Can this be done using
> Sailwave?
>
> Rgds
>
> George Morris
> Findhorn, Morayshire,
>
> Weta 117
>
>
>

--
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype "eskdale"