SW Flights v.1.62

Imported from Yahoo
1

Colin,

I've been testing 1.62 a bit....

It looks good to me, an all new stuff looks greate.

But:
Scoring flights seems to work in one regatta. Haven't found any problems yet....

When merging two regattas into one series, flights don't work.... I don't get the (new) flights from the second regatta. Then scoring is not possible....

Maybe flights can't be a "column" (that is Regatta spesific), but have to be competitor or race specific.... For having SW to handle the AppLE (earlier KE), I think it has to be race spesific.... Because when racing in, lets say, 49er Worlds, flights changes every day- And it is not given (I think) how many times each boat is in a flight. Except then it has to be equal for all.... ( I think). Take a look in the SI I sent you for that...

Also I want, for the one regatta option, th have the properties tree to show how many boats in each flight....

regards,
Martin

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

2

Hello Collin

It seems that 1.62 drops the update handicap numbers feature.
This is important if you import competitors from a csv file... because you can update all of the numbers at once.

Thanks
Mark

···

From: Martin B�lgen <martin@seilforening.no>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
CC: "Colin Jenkins" <colin@sailwave.com>
Subject: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 00:52:44 +0200

Colin,

I've been testing 1.62 a bit....

It looks good to me, an all new stuff looks greate.

But:
Scoring flights seems to work in one regatta. Haven't found any problems yet....

When merging two regattas into one series, flights don't work.... I don't get the (new) flights from the second regatta. Then scoring is not possible....

Maybe flights can't be a "column" (that is Regatta spesific), but have to be competitor or race specific.... For having SW to handle the AppLE (earlier KE), I think it has to be race spesific.... Because when racing in, lets say, 49er Worlds, flights changes every day- And it is not given (I think) how many times each boat is in a flight. Except then it has to be equal for all.... ( I think). Take a look in the SI I sent you for that...

Also I want, for the one regatta option, th have the properties tree to show how many boats in each flight....

regards,
Martin

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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3

Hi Martin

I understand the 9er Qualification system your are talking about, where the make up of flights
changes at the end of the day, & I presume that Colin will be addressing this at some point.
What is confusing me is the need to merge two (flighted) series into one.

One of the basic concepts of flights is that all competitors will sail against all the others during
the regatta.
To merge two flights series into one, so that each individual race counts towards an overall merged
series, is something that I have not come across, as you would not be able to satisfy the above
concept

In an earlier email, you made reference to a ranking series (Optimist?) - is this the scenario you
are trying to deal with?
If this is the case, most ranking series I have come across are based upon the positions in each
regatta going forward to the ranking series as an 'individual race'.
In this instance, there would be a need to merge the final result only.

Am I missing something???

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Bolgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 20 May 2005 23:53
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Cc: Colin Jenkins
Subject: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

Colin,

I've been testing 1.62 a bit....

It looks good to me, an all new stuff looks greate.

But:
Scoring flights seems to work in one regatta. Haven't found any problems yet....

When merging two regattas into one series, flights don't work.... I don't get the (new) flights from
the second regatta. Then scoring is not possible....

Maybe flights can't be a "column" (that is Regatta spesific), but have to be competitor or race
specific.... For having SW to handle the AppLE (earlier KE), I think it has to be race spesific....
Because when racing in, lets say, 49er Worlds, flights changes every day- And it is not given (I
think) how many times each boat is in a flight. Except then it has to be equal for all.... ( I
think). Take a look in the SI I sent you for that...

Also I want, for the one regatta option, th have the properties tree to show how many boats in each
flight....

regards,
Martin

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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4

Hi Mark,

It seems that 1.62 drops the update handicap numbers feature.
This is important if you import competitors from a csv file...
because you
can update all of the numbers at once.

Thanks
Mark

Yes, sorry about that, it's on its way to the Edit+ScoringSystem window as
an option to do as a preface to scoring everytime the series is scored.
Coupled with the (not finished yet) concept of multiple scoring systems, it
will be much easier to score using different rating systems. i.e. click
score - select scoring system and away you go. Should be done some time
next week.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

···

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5

Hi, Ralph!
I'm not sure who is missing something, but you have for sure comed across another way of doing things. Since it's about sailing, I hope you're not suprised!

Yes, we want to merge several flight-regattas.

The idea is that you make up flight-regattas, and score them as individuals. Then, for ranking purposes, we want's to merge them and the competitors can discard their worst scores. No matter which start, but the worst scores. I do know the system you're pointing at, but this is the way the Optimists in Norway wants it.

The ranking is also for qualifying to international regattas... And in the end, we want to merge all national optimists regattas (4 a year) into one overall regatta, with the same way of discarding races...

Hope this was clearifying what I wants.

Anyway, I still think that the flight has to be linked to the rac (or start), otherwise the 9er system can't be working either. In a -9er qualifying series all runs counts, even if the flight members changes around. Because of that, flights can't be a static value for the whole Regatta (or series).

Agree?

Regard,
Martin

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Ralph Tingle
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 11:19 AM
  Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

  Hi Martin

  I understand the 9er Qualification system your are talking about, where the make up of flights
  changes at the end of the day, & I presume that Colin will be addressing this at some point.
  What is confusing me is the need to merge two (flighted) series into one.

  One of the basic concepts of flights is that all competitors will sail against all the others during
  the regatta.
  To merge two flights series into one, so that each individual race counts towards an overall merged
  series, is something that I have not come across, as you would not be able to satisfy the above
  concept

  In an earlier email, you made reference to a ranking series (Optimist?) - is this the scenario you
  are trying to deal with?
  If this is the case, most ranking series I have come across are based upon the positions in each
  regatta going forward to the ranking series as an 'individual race'.
  In this instance, there would be a need to merge the final result only.

  Am I missing something???

  Regards
  Ralph

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Martin Bolgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
  Sent: 20 May 2005 23:53
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Cc: Colin Jenkins
  Subject: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

  Colin,

  I've been testing 1.62 a bit....

  It looks good to me, an all new stuff looks greate.

  But:
  Scoring flights seems to work in one regatta. Haven't found any problems yet....

  When merging two regattas into one series, flights don't work.... I don't get the (new) flights from
  the second regatta. Then scoring is not possible....

  Maybe flights can't be a "column" (that is Regatta spesific), but have to be competitor or race
  specific.... For having SW to handle the AppLE (earlier KE), I think it has to be race spesific....
  Because when racing in, lets say, 49er Worlds, flights changes every day- And it is not given (I
  think) how many times each boat is in a flight. Except then it has to be equal for all.... ( I
  think). Take a look in the SI I sent you for that...

  Also I want, for the one regatta option, th have the properties tree to show how many boats in each
  flight....

  regards,
  Martin

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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6

Argh...
1.62 does not have discard profile!@#$%&#%

Had to back up to the public version because I could not get previous versions with discard profiles onto a floppy and then onto the old PC.

Lost some beer drinking time.

Mark

···

From: "Colin Jenkins" <colin@sailwave.com>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62
Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:25:14 +0100

Hi Mark,

> It seems that 1.62 drops the update handicap numbers feature.
> This is important if you import competitors from a csv file...
> because you
> can update all of the numbers at once.
>
> Thanks
> Mark

Yes, sorry about that, it's on its way to the Edit+ScoringSystem window as
an option to do as a preface to scoring everytime the series is scored.
Coupled with the (not finished yet) concept of multiple scoring systems, it
will be much easier to score using different rating systems. i.e. click
score - select scoring system and away you go. Should be done some time
next week.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

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7

Hi, Mark!
Loosing beer drinking time, is a serious matter!
When I look at the timestamp of your posting, I hope you're not in Europe...

Anyway, the discard profile is in "Scoring system" - "series scoring", or ??

regards
Martin

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Schneider" <mschneid@msn.com>
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2005 4:14 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

Argh...
1.62 does not have discard profile!@#$%&#%

Had to back up to the public version because I could not get previous
versions with discard profiles onto a floppy and then onto the old PC.

Lost some beer drinking time.

Mark
>From: "Colin Jenkins" <colin@sailwave.com>
>Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
>To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62
>Date: Sat, 21 May 2005 11:25:14 +0100
>
>Hi Mark,
>
> > It seems that 1.62 drops the update handicap numbers feature.
> > This is important if you import competitors from a csv file...
> > because you
> > can update all of the numbers at once.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Mark
>
>Yes, sorry about that, it's on its way to the Edit+ScoringSystem window as
>an option to do as a preface to scoring everytime the series is scored.
>Coupled with the (not finished yet) concept of multiple scoring systems, it
>will be much easier to score using different rating systems. i.e. click
>score - select scoring system and away you go. Should be done some time
>next week.
>
>Regards,
>Colin J
>www.sailwave.com
>
>
>
>
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>Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
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>
>
>
>
>-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!-
>http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
>
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8

Hi Mark,

Argh...
1.62 does not have discard profile!@#$%&#%

Had to back up to the public version because I could not get previous
versions with discard profiles onto a floppy and then onto the old PC.

Lost some beer drinking time.

Bad news, but, what do you mean...? Discard profile looks OK...

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

···

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9

Thanks Martin

Thought it was only the Brits who could devise a difficult ranking system :wink:

I am afraid that I cannot quite understand your points re 9er Qualification.
In case you are used to dealing with a different method of Qual & Finals, I am using Appendix K(E)
Addendum C as basis for my logic.

My thoughts are that it is the same principle and set up method in SW as the flights we have been
talking about recently where the flight colours are entered for each race/start, but
- the format of which colours race against each other remains the same each day e.g yellow v blue,
red v green all day or a rotation of some sort (This is optional for organisers - Addendum C does
not say)
- boats are re-allocated to different flights at the end of the day on the basis of para 7.2
- At the end of the Qual series, boats are re-allocated to Gold, Silver etc & remain in those fleets
for the remainder of the regatta.

Eventually, it is hoped that SW can
- automate the process of 7.2
- Score the Finals as separate fleets from that point on, but carry forward the Qualification scores
without re-calculating (that's the difficult one Colin bit like converting spreadsheet formulae to
values)

At least for the time being, SW can deal with the above, although it is a bit labour intensive.

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Bolgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 21 May 2005 16:48
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

Hi, Ralph!
I'm not sure who is missing something, but you have for sure comed across another way of doing
things. Since it's about sailing, I hope you're not suprised!

Yes, we want to merge several flight-regattas.

The idea is that you make up flight-regattas, and score them as individuals. Then, for ranking
purposes, we want's to merge them and the competitors can discard their worst scores. No matter
which start, but the worst scores. I do know the system you're pointing at, but this is the way the
Optimists in Norway wants it.

The ranking is also for qualifying to international regattas... And in the end, we want to merge all
national optimists regattas (4 a year) into one overall regatta, with the same way of discarding
races...

Hope this was clearifying what I wants.

Anyway, I still think that the flight has to be linked to the rac (or start), otherwise the 9er
system can't be working either. In a -9er qualifying series all runs counts, even if the flight
members changes around. Because of that, flights can't be a static value for the whole Regatta (or
series).

Agree?

Regard,
Martin
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Ralph Tingle
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 11:19 AM
  Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

  Hi Martin

  I understand the 9er Qualification system your are talking about, where the make up of flights
  changes at the end of the day, & I presume that Colin will be addressing this at some point.
  What is confusing me is the need to merge two (flighted) series into one.

  One of the basic concepts of flights is that all competitors will sail against all the others
during
  the regatta.
  To merge two flights series into one, so that each individual race counts towards an overall
merged
  series, is something that I have not come across, as you would not be able to satisfy the above
  concept

  In an earlier email, you made reference to a ranking series (Optimist?) - is this the scenario you
  are trying to deal with?
  If this is the case, most ranking series I have come across are based upon the positions in each
  regatta going forward to the ranking series as an 'individual race'.
  In this instance, there would be a need to merge the final result only.

  Am I missing something???

  Regards
  Ralph

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Martin Bolgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
  Sent: 20 May 2005 23:53
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Cc: Colin Jenkins
  Subject: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

  Colin,

  I've been testing 1.62 a bit....

  It looks good to me, an all new stuff looks greate.

  But:
  Scoring flights seems to work in one regatta. Haven't found any problems yet....

  When merging two regattas into one series, flights don't work.... I don't get the (new) flights
from
  the second regatta. Then scoring is not possible....

  Maybe flights can't be a "column" (that is Regatta spesific), but have to be competitor or race
  specific.... For having SW to handle the AppLE (earlier KE), I think it has to be race
spesific....
  Because when racing in, lets say, 49er Worlds, flights changes every day- And it is not given (I
  think) how many times each boat is in a flight. Except then it has to be equal for all.... ( I
  think). Take a look in the SI I sent you for that...

  Also I want, for the one regatta option, th have the properties tree to show how many boats in
each
  flight....

  regards,
  Martin

  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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10

Hi Ralph,

Score the Finals as separate fleets from that point on, but
carry forward the Qualification scores
without re-calculating (that's the difficult one Colin bit like
converting spreadsheet formulae to
values)

I must admit that I'd always envisaged the qualifications and finals as two
separate series files with one 'flowing' into the other... separate discard
profiles, etc.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

···

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11

Colin,

We have always run them as seperate series. Occasionally we carry forward their position in the qualification series position as a race result in the final series.

Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

----Original Message Follows----

···

From: "Colin Jenkins" <colin@sailwave.com>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 07:16:10 +0100

Hi Ralph,

> Score the Finals as separate fleets from that point on, but
> carry forward the Qualification scores
> without re-calculating (that's the difficult one Colin bit like
> converting spreadsheet formulae to
> values)

I must admit that I'd always envisaged the qualifications and finals as two
separate series files with one 'flowing' into the other... separate discard
profiles, etc.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

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12

Hi Mark,

OK, thanks for the confirmation. I think the way a 'one file' solution is
limited at the moment - by sailing in M or the N races you can see in the
main view is a good compromise; if I start to try and cut it up vertically
it could add another layer of complication we don't want; unless of course
there is a simple solution. As long as there is a slick way ofr 'flowing'
the qualifiers into the finals, there shouldn't be a probloem though.

Colin

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mark Townsend
Sent: 24 May 2005 16:04
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

Colin,

We have always run them as seperate series. Occasionally we carry forward
their position in the qualification series position as a race
result in the
final series.

Mark Townsend
s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

----Original Message Follows----
From: "Colin Jenkins" <colin@sailwave.com>
Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62
Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 07:16:10 +0100

Hi Ralph,

> Score the Finals as separate fleets from that point on, but
> carry forward the Qualification scores
> without re-calculating (that's the difficult one Colin bit like
> converting spreadsheet formulae to
> values)

I must admit that I'd always envisaged the qualifications and
finals as two
separate series files with one 'flowing' into the other...
separate discard
profiles, etc.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

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13

Brits ARE making it difficult... Have you ever tough about why a 12 gauge shotgun has less diameter than a 10 gauge ? I can explain it, but du you want it?

Well, I can't see how SW (at this point) can deal with boats changing flights every day, and still keep race results from previous days... When you rescore, everything will be inconsistent. Anyway, the way a boat belongs to flights are set for the file(regata) not for the race...?

Sorry, I don't get it

···

----- Original Message -----
  From: Ralph Tingle
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:59 PM
  Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

  Thanks Martin

  Thought it was only the Brits who could devise a difficult ranking system :wink:

  I am afraid that I cannot quite understand your points re 9er Qualification.
  In case you are used to dealing with a different method of Qual & Finals, I am using Appendix K(E)
  Addendum C as basis for my logic.

  My thoughts are that it is the same principle and set up method in SW as the flights we have been
  talking about recently where the flight colours are entered for each race/start, but
  - the format of which colours race against each other remains the same each day e.g yellow v blue,
  red v green all day or a rotation of some sort (This is optional for organisers - Addendum C does
  not say)
  - boats are re-allocated to different flights at the end of the day on the basis of para 7.2
  - At the end of the Qual series, boats are re-allocated to Gold, Silver etc & remain in those fleets
  for the remainder of the regatta.

  Eventually, it is hoped that SW can
  - automate the process of 7.2
  - Score the Finals as separate fleets from that point on, but carry forward the Qualification scores
  without re-calculating (that's the difficult one Colin bit like converting spreadsheet formulae to
  values)

  At least for the time being, SW can deal with the above, although it is a bit labour intensive.

  Regards
  Ralph

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Martin Bolgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
  Sent: 21 May 2005 16:48
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

  Hi, Ralph!
  I'm not sure who is missing something, but you have for sure comed across another way of doing
  things. Since it's about sailing, I hope you're not suprised!

  Yes, we want to merge several flight-regattas.

  The idea is that you make up flight-regattas, and score them as individuals. Then, for ranking
  purposes, we want's to merge them and the competitors can discard their worst scores. No matter
  which start, but the worst scores. I do know the system you're pointing at, but this is the way the
  Optimists in Norway wants it.

  The ranking is also for qualifying to international regattas... And in the end, we want to merge all
  national optimists regattas (4 a year) into one overall regatta, with the same way of discarding
  races...

  Hope this was clearifying what I wants.

  Anyway, I still think that the flight has to be linked to the rac (or start), otherwise the 9er
  system can't be working either. In a -9er qualifying series all runs counts, even if the flight
  members changes around. Because of that, flights can't be a static value for the whole Regatta (or
  series).

  Agree?

  Regard,
  Martin
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Ralph Tingle
    To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 11:19 AM
    Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

    Hi Martin

    I understand the 9er Qualification system your are talking about, where the make up of flights
    changes at the end of the day, & I presume that Colin will be addressing this at some point.
    What is confusing me is the need to merge two (flighted) series into one.

    One of the basic concepts of flights is that all competitors will sail against all the others
  during
    the regatta.
    To merge two flights series into one, so that each individual race counts towards an overall
  merged
    series, is something that I have not come across, as you would not be able to satisfy the above
    concept

    In an earlier email, you made reference to a ranking series (Optimist?) - is this the scenario you
    are trying to deal with?
    If this is the case, most ranking series I have come across are based upon the positions in each
    regatta going forward to the ranking series as an 'individual race'.
    In this instance, there would be a need to merge the final result only.

    Am I missing something???

    Regards
    Ralph

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Martin Bolgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
    Sent: 20 May 2005 23:53
    To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
    Cc: Colin Jenkins
    Subject: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

    Colin,

    I've been testing 1.62 a bit....

    It looks good to me, an all new stuff looks greate.

    But:
    Scoring flights seems to work in one regatta. Haven't found any problems yet....

    When merging two regattas into one series, flights don't work.... I don't get the (new) flights
  from
    the second regatta. Then scoring is not possible....

    Maybe flights can't be a "column" (that is Regatta spesific), but have to be competitor or race
    specific.... For having SW to handle the AppLE (earlier KE), I think it has to be race
  spesific....
    Because when racing in, lets say, 49er Worlds, flights changes every day- And it is not given (I
    think) how many times each boat is in a flight. Except then it has to be equal for all.... ( I
    think). Take a look in the SI I sent you for that...

    Also I want, for the one regatta option, th have the properties tree to show how many boats in
  each
    flight....

    regards,
    Martin

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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14

Hi Colin.
I agree with that the qualifications and finals are separate fleets (Regattas/files). One problem here is that they often bring some points with them from the qualifications, and these points can be eiteher ther position/rank as points, or teheir actual points (w/discards) from the qualifications.

This is for the 9er-like flights series.

What about my Optimists ranking/long series flights regattas?

I think that if the flight "belong" to the race (not the regatta), the problems for both 9er (app KE), and "my" optimists are solved.....

As I said to Ralph: I can't see how SW hdeals with boats changing fligt (color) everey day, still in the qualification series...

Regards
Martin

···

----- Original Message -----
From: "Colin Jenkins" <colin@sailwave.com>
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 10:12 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

Hi Mark,

OK, thanks for the confirmation. I think the way a 'one file' solution is
limited at the moment - by sailing in M or the N races you can see in the
main view is a good compromise; if I start to try and cut it up vertically
it could add another layer of complication we don't want; unless of course
there is a simple solution. As long as there is a slick way ofr 'flowing'
the qualifiers into the finals, there shouldn't be a probloem though.

Colin

> -----Original Message-----
> From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Mark Townsend
> Sent: 24 May 2005 16:04
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62
>
>
> Colin,
>
> We have always run them as seperate series. Occasionally we carry forward
> their position in the qualification series position as a race
> result in the
> final series.
>
>
> Mark Townsend
> s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ----Original Message Follows----
> From: "Colin Jenkins" <colin@sailwave.com>
> Reply-To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62
> Date: Tue, 24 May 2005 07:16:10 +0100
>
> Hi Ralph,
>
> > Score the Finals as separate fleets from that point on, but
> > carry forward the Qualification scores
> > without re-calculating (that's the difficult one Colin bit like
> > converting spreadsheet formulae to
> > values)
>
> I must admit that I'd always envisaged the qualifications and
> finals as two
> separate series files with one 'flowing' into the other...
> separate discard
> profiles, etc.
>
> Regards,
> Colin J
> www.sailwave.com
>
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15

Hi
You might find the latest SIs for the Medemblik Olympic Classes Regatta useful.
http://hollandregatta.org/2005/files/Sailing_Instructions.pdf

I think these are generally standard for most of the Olympic classes regattas throughout the world.

You will see the principle of Qualifiying & Finals where the regatta is scored as a whole, not two
seperate series with a single discard profile.
There is also reference to the 'Grand Finals ' . Read this for interest as the principle is still
very much in the development stages
Heyres was a total disaster from what I have heard :frowning:

The methodology of Grand Finals is still in its infancy and may take a long time until it settles
down & then may take even longer to be adopted by 'mere mortals'

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 24 May 2005 07:16
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

Hi Ralph,

Score the Finals as separate fleets from that point on, but
carry forward the Qualification scores
without re-calculating (that's the difficult one Colin bit like
converting spreadsheet formulae to
values)

I must admit that I'd always envisaged the qualifications and finals as two
separate series files with one 'flowing' into the other... separate discard
profiles, etc.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

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16

Think I am with you now Martin

You are correct (I think) that Colin has only set up 'fixed' flight allocations
I am assuming that the development plan includes covering changing flights each day but suspect my
recent post on the Medemlblik regatta may put the development further down the queue.

In programming terms, the most common/'official' method should be the basis of the system, allowing
for variations, but unfortunately, the Flight, Qual/Finals scoring systems have yet to settle down.

Colin, you might need to speak to Jerome Pels for guidance

Regards
Ralph

···

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Bolgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 25 May 2005 22:37
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

Brits ARE making it difficult... Have you ever tough about why a 12 gauge shotgun has less diameter
than a 10 gauge ? I can explain it, but du you want it?

Well, I can't see how SW (at this point) can deal with boats changing flights every day, and still
keep race results from previous days... When you rescore, everything will be inconsistent. Anyway,
the way a boat belongs to flights are set for the file(regata) not for the race...?

Sorry, I don't get it
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Ralph Tingle
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:59 PM
  Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

  Thanks Martin

  Thought it was only the Brits who could devise a difficult ranking system :wink:

  I am afraid that I cannot quite understand your points re 9er Qualification.
  In case you are used to dealing with a different method of Qual & Finals, I am using Appendix K(E)
  Addendum C as basis for my logic.

  My thoughts are that it is the same principle and set up method in SW as the flights we have been
  talking about recently where the flight colours are entered for each race/start, but
  - the format of which colours race against each other remains the same each day e.g yellow v blue,
  red v green all day or a rotation of some sort (This is optional for organisers - Addendum C does
  not say)
  - boats are re-allocated to different flights at the end of the day on the basis of para 7.2
  - At the end of the Qual series, boats are re-allocated to Gold, Silver etc & remain in those
fleets
  for the remainder of the regatta.

  Eventually, it is hoped that SW can
  - automate the process of 7.2
  - Score the Finals as separate fleets from that point on, but carry forward the Qualification
scores
  without re-calculating (that's the difficult one Colin bit like converting spreadsheet formulae to
  values)

  At least for the time being, SW can deal with the above, although it is a bit labour intensive.

  Regards
  Ralph

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Martin Bolgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
  Sent: 21 May 2005 16:48
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

  Hi, Ralph!
  I'm not sure who is missing something, but you have for sure comed across another way of doing
  things. Since it's about sailing, I hope you're not suprised!

  Yes, we want to merge several flight-regattas.

  The idea is that you make up flight-regattas, and score them as individuals. Then, for ranking
  purposes, we want's to merge them and the competitors can discard their worst scores. No matter
  which start, but the worst scores. I do know the system you're pointing at, but this is the way
the
  Optimists in Norway wants it.

  The ranking is also for qualifying to international regattas... And in the end, we want to merge
all
  national optimists regattas (4 a year) into one overall regatta, with the same way of discarding
  races...

  Hope this was clearifying what I wants.

  Anyway, I still think that the flight has to be linked to the rac (or start), otherwise the 9er
  system can't be working either. In a -9er qualifying series all runs counts, even if the flight
  members changes around. Because of that, flights can't be a static value for the whole Regatta (or
  series).

  Agree?

  Regard,
  Martin
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Ralph Tingle
    To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 11:19 AM
    Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

    Hi Martin

    I understand the 9er Qualification system your are talking about, where the make up of flights
    changes at the end of the day, & I presume that Colin will be addressing this at some point.
    What is confusing me is the need to merge two (flighted) series into one.

    One of the basic concepts of flights is that all competitors will sail against all the others
  during
    the regatta.
    To merge two flights series into one, so that each individual race counts towards an overall
  merged
    series, is something that I have not come across, as you would not be able to satisfy the above
    concept

    In an earlier email, you made reference to a ranking series (Optimist?) - is this the scenario
you
    are trying to deal with?
    If this is the case, most ranking series I have come across are based upon the positions in each
    regatta going forward to the ranking series as an 'individual race'.
    In this instance, there would be a need to merge the final result only.

    Am I missing something???

    Regards
    Ralph

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Martin Bolgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
    Sent: 20 May 2005 23:53
    To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
    Cc: Colin Jenkins
    Subject: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

    Colin,

    I've been testing 1.62 a bit....

    It looks good to me, an all new stuff looks greate.

    But:
    Scoring flights seems to work in one regatta. Haven't found any problems yet....

    When merging two regattas into one series, flights don't work.... I don't get the (new) flights
  from
    the second regatta. Then scoring is not possible....

    Maybe flights can't be a "column" (that is Regatta spesific), but have to be competitor or race
    specific.... For having SW to handle the AppLE (earlier KE), I think it has to be race
  spesific....
    Because when racing in, lets say, 49er Worlds, flights changes every day- And it is not given (I
    think) how many times each boat is in a flight. Except then it has to be equal for all.... ( I
    think). Take a look in the SI I sent you for that...

    Also I want, for the one regatta option, th have the properties tree to show how many boats in
  each
    flight....

    regards,
    Martin

    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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17

Ralph/Martin,

My plan is to have a race specific flight value, like race specific ratings,
with various methods of rotating from race to race, including chaging that
method at any point through the series.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 26 May 2005 12:12
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

Think I am with you now Martin

You are correct (I think) that Colin has only set up 'fixed'
flight allocations
I am assuming that the development plan includes covering
changing flights each day but suspect my
recent post on the Medemlblik regatta may put the development
further down the queue.

In programming terms, the most common/'official' method should be
the basis of the system, allowing
for variations, but unfortunately, the Flight, Qual/Finals
scoring systems have yet to settle down.

Colin, you might need to speak to Jerome Pels for guidance

Regards
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Martin Bolgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 25 May 2005 22:37
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

Brits ARE making it difficult... Have you ever tough about why a
12 gauge shotgun has less diameter
than a 10 gauge ? I can explain it, but du you want it?

Well, I can't see how SW (at this point) can deal with boats
changing flights every day, and still
keep race results from previous days... When you rescore,
everything will be inconsistent. Anyway,
the way a boat belongs to flights are set for the file(regata)
not for the race...?

Sorry, I don't get it
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Ralph Tingle
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Monday, May 23, 2005 10:59 PM
  Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

  Thanks Martin

  Thought it was only the Brits who could devise a difficult
ranking system :wink:

  I am afraid that I cannot quite understand your points re 9er
Qualification.
  In case you are used to dealing with a different method of Qual
& Finals, I am using Appendix K(E)
  Addendum C as basis for my logic.

  My thoughts are that it is the same principle and set up method
in SW as the flights we have been
  talking about recently where the flight colours are entered for
each race/start, but
  - the format of which colours race against each other remains
the same each day e.g yellow v blue,
  red v green all day or a rotation of some sort (This is
optional for organisers - Addendum C does
  not say)
  - boats are re-allocated to different flights at the end of the
day on the basis of para 7.2
  - At the end of the Qual series, boats are re-allocated to
Gold, Silver etc & remain in those
fleets
  for the remainder of the regatta.

  Eventually, it is hoped that SW can
  - automate the process of 7.2
  - Score the Finals as separate fleets from that point on, but
carry forward the Qualification
scores
  without re-calculating (that's the difficult one Colin bit like
converting spreadsheet formulae to
  values)

  At least for the time being, SW can deal with the above,
although it is a bit labour intensive.

  Regards
  Ralph

  -----Original Message-----
  From: Martin Bolgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
  Sent: 21 May 2005 16:48
  To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
  Subject: Re: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

  Hi, Ralph!
  I'm not sure who is missing something, but you have for sure
comed across another way of doing
  things. Since it's about sailing, I hope you're not suprised!

  Yes, we want to merge several flight-regattas.

  The idea is that you make up flight-regattas, and score them as
individuals. Then, for ranking
  purposes, we want's to merge them and the competitors can
discard their worst scores. No matter
  which start, but the worst scores. I do know the system you're
pointing at, but this is the way
the
  Optimists in Norway wants it.

  The ranking is also for qualifying to international regattas...
And in the end, we want to merge
all
  national optimists regattas (4 a year) into one overall
regatta, with the same way of discarding
  races...

  Hope this was clearifying what I wants.

  Anyway, I still think that the flight has to be linked to the
rac (or start), otherwise the 9er
  system can't be working either. In a -9er qualifying series all
runs counts, even if the flight
  members changes around. Because of that, flights can't be a
static value for the whole Regatta (or
  series).

  Agree?

  Regard,
  Martin
    ----- Original Message -----
    From: Ralph Tingle
    To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
    Sent: Saturday, May 21, 2005 11:19 AM
    Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

    Hi Martin

    I understand the 9er Qualification system your are talking
about, where the make up of flights
    changes at the end of the day, & I presume that Colin will be
addressing this at some point.
    What is confusing me is the need to merge two (flighted)
series into one.

    One of the basic concepts of flights is that all competitors
will sail against all the others
  during
    the regatta.
    To merge two flights series into one, so that each individual
race counts towards an overall
  merged
    series, is something that I have not come across, as you
would not be able to satisfy the above
    concept

    In an earlier email, you made reference to a ranking series
(Optimist?) - is this the scenario
you
    are trying to deal with?
    If this is the case, most ranking series I have come across
are based upon the positions in each
    regatta going forward to the ranking series as an 'individual race'.
    In this instance, there would be a need to merge the final
result only.

    Am I missing something???

    Regards
    Ralph

    -----Original Message-----
    From: Martin Bolgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
    Sent: 20 May 2005 23:53
    To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
    Cc: Colin Jenkins
    Subject: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

    Colin,

    I've been testing 1.62 a bit....

    It looks good to me, an all new stuff looks greate.

    But:
    Scoring flights seems to work in one regatta. Haven't found
any problems yet....

    When merging two regattas into one series, flights don't
work.... I don't get the (new) flights
  from
    the second regatta. Then scoring is not possible....

    Maybe flights can't be a "column" (that is Regatta spesific),
but have to be competitor or race
    specific.... For having SW to handle the AppLE (earlier KE),
I think it has to be race
  spesific....
    Because when racing in, lets say, 49er Worlds, flights
changes every day- And it is not given (I
    think) how many times each boat is in a flight. Except then
it has to be equal for all.... ( I
    think). Take a look in the SI I sent you for that...

    Also I want, for the one regatta option, th have the
properties tree to show how many boats in
  each
    flight....

    regards,
    Martin

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18

Thanks Ralph, I'll take a look at them. CJ.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 26 May 2005 11:49
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

Hi
You might find the latest SIs for the Medemblik Olympic Classes
Regatta useful.
http://hollandregatta.org/2005/files/Sailing_Instructions.pdf

I think these are generally standard for most of the Olympic
classes regattas throughout the world.

You will see the principle of Qualifiying & Finals where the
regatta is scored as a whole, not two
seperate series with a single discard profile.
There is also reference to the 'Grand Finals ' . Read this for
interest as the principle is still
very much in the development stages
Heyres was a total disaster from what I have heard :frowning:

The methodology of Grand Finals is still in its infancy and may
take a long time until it settles
down & then may take even longer to be adopted by 'mere mortals'

Regards
Ralph

-----Original Message-----
From: Colin Jenkins [mailto:colin@sailwave.com]
Sent: 24 May 2005 07:16
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] SW Flights v.1.62

Hi Ralph,

> Score the Finals as separate fleets from that point on, but
> carry forward the Qualification scores
> without re-calculating (that's the difficult one Colin bit like
> converting spreadsheet formulae to
> values)

I must admit that I'd always envisaged the qualifications and
finals as two
separate series files with one 'flowing' into the other...
separate discard
profiles, etc.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

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19

Hi Martin,

Maybe flights can't be a "column" (that is Regatta spesific), but
have to be competitor or race specific.... For having SW to
handle the AppLE (earlier KE), I think it has to be race
spesific.... Because when racing in, lets say, 49er Worlds,
flights changes every day- And it is not given (I think) how many
times each boat is in a flight. Except then it has to be equal
for all.... ( I think). Take a look in the SI I sent you for that...

You should be able to model an Ap LE addendum C event now in Sailwave. You
do not need separate files. In fact I've realised now that although oeple
refer to quals and finsals as two separate series, they are in fact all part
of the same series, which just some flight swapping going on.

Regards,
Colin J
www.sailwave.com

···

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