Tie breaks using RRS A8.2 with Flights

General
1

Hi,

I am doing a bit of testing ahead of the 100-boat Streaker Nationals where we will be using flights for the first time in our history!

We intend to use the amended A8.2 and I have checked the option “8.2 only applies for boats in the same start”. However, in my simple 8-boat test scenario (2 boats in each flight, 4 boats in each start) the ties are not being broken correctly.

I have provided a link to my test file below.

The flights/starts for the 3 races are as follows:
Race 1st Start 2nd Start
Q1 Yellow & Blue Red & Green
Q2 Yellow & Red Blue & Green
Q3 Blue & Red Yellow & Green

There are two ties not broken correctly:
Tom and Martin in Q1 - this is the only race where they met and Tom won.
Alan and Giles in Q1 - this is the only race where they met and Alan won.

What am I missing please?!

Sailwave file: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1V4y-BJVsxKpWN7oKeELdneEjCmCHFK4N/view?usp=sharing

2

Hi Neil,

Welcome back to the SUG forum.

What are you missing?
You are not understanding the difference between who is starting together (colour flight/group pairs) and flight colour, which I prefer to call colour group in this way of doing ‘flights’.

Yes, Tom & Martin race against each other in Q1 but they are in different colour groups. Same with Alan & Giles.

The check box you have ticked option “8.2 only applies for boats in the same start” on the Race tab of Scoring system applies to competitors in the same flight / colour group not race start colour group pairings.

Sailwave has scored Tom & Martin correctly but not Alan & Giles with the settings you have enabled. Un-ticking option “8.2 only applies for boats in the same start” on Race tab of Scoring system, scores Alan & Giles correctly.

I hope my explanation makes sense.
Kind regards,
Huw

3

Thanks Huw. I’m still struggling with this, sorry!

Note: the .blw on the link in the original post is live and has been updated as described below…

I have noticed that (outside of sailwave at least) the term ‘flight’ is used interchangeably to mean ‘boats that start together’ and/or ‘boats in the same colour group’.
As you say, in my example, I have setup each helm in a colour group which I have put in the ‘Flight’ field. Then, for each race, I have defined two starts, each start with a different pair of colours…
that’s just to make sure we’re on the same page so far.

OK, so you state that, although the tick box says “8.2 only applies to boats in the same start” that is not what it is doing? That is definitely what we want it to do! The only race where Tom and Martin are in the same start is Q1, therefore that is the race that should be used to break the tie (in Tom’s favour).

Nevertheless, to test your suggestion, I un-ticked the option “8.2 only applies…” and rescored. That gave the appearance that the problem was fixed but I realised that my test case wasn’t a true test! Standard A8.2 (without flights) would have broken the tie in the same way (because Q1 happened to be the only race where Tom and Martin were not tied).

For a more thorough test, I have changed the result of Q3 so that Tom was 2nd and Martin was 1st (but in a different start). So now I have a test scenario that is not scoring correctly, whether I tick the “8.2 only applies…” option or not.

If the tie is broken using standard A8.2 (as if without flights) it breaks in favour of Martin (the winner of the ‘last race’ Q3). But that is not correct, because Tom and Martin weren’t in the same start in Q3. What we want, as the check box says, is to break the tie by only applying 8.2 when the boats were in the same start… in this case Q1. That would break the tie in favour of Tom.

I don’t think this method of using pairs of colour groups in a single start is unusual. We have modelled our SIs on some standard Topper and ILCA events that I know were scored using sailwave. That said, I don’t know how they setup sailwave and I haven’t double checked to see if all their ties are broken correctly!!

Hope you can help!
Thanks,
Neil

4

Just in case my sailwave version is doing something different to yours, this is what I see…

image
image723×158 7.57 KB

5

Hi Neil,

I completely understand how you have set-up your file. As you say it is a quite common set-up. Personally I do not use the flights column but another Sailwave column and label it ‘Colour Group’. But that is me, because I try to distinguish between flights, which usually are reassigned on a daily basis, and colour group assignment. I agree outside of Sailwave ‘flight’ is used to cover both colour group assignment and initial flight assignment and then daily flight reassignment.

I agree Tom & Martin sail against one another in Q1 BUT they are not in the same individual colour group, they are in the same colour group pairing. This an important distinction. Tom and Martin are never, with the way you have things, in the same individual colour group.

I also agree using colour group pairing is not unusual but what is unusual, to me, is the requirement to tie break on who sailed in what pairing of colour groups, e.g. yellow & blue.

Sailwave cannot score the tie break in the way you are wanting with the set-up you have. It has never been a problem for the Topper & ILCA classes that I am aware of. They just accept the way Sailwave does the tie break.

There might be away to achieve the tie break you are looking for but it will be a different and more complicated set-up. I am not promising it can be done until I have had a look my idea in detail. My idea involves using what I call true flights not your set-up of round robin colour group pairing.

I need to test my idea out and see if would achieve the tie break you are looking for. I am busy tomorrow but should be able to test my idea on Monday.

Kind regards,
Huw

6

Hi Neil,

It was quicker to do than I thought, so no waiting until Monday to see if this does what you want in terms of tie break.

Take a look at this Sailwave .BLW file.
Neil Flights Testing - Huw.blw (26.9 KB)

Kind regards,
Huw