It is getting on toward Spring and time for me to try seeing if I can
use Sailwave for scoring.
My requirements:
5 race series
Handicap scoring (PHRF, ToD)
Class assignments will change from race to race
Last year I couldn't get Sailwave to work so I did the scoring under
Excel. I'd like to try Sailwave again as folks think it OUGHT to be
able to meet my requirements. And, I figure there must be a scoring
program out there that I can use.
Last year I was recommended to use "flights" or "aliases." Without
instructions for either I was kind of at sea (and figured it was
easier to write custom macros for Excel). I just spent Sunday trying
to figure out how to use "flights" and Sailwave doesn't seem to be
working as intended (but maybe my expectations are unrealistic).
I generated a 6 boat, 3 race regatta with a couple of boats moving
from class to class in-between races. I implemented that by assigning
boats to a "flight" for each race, with assigned "flights" changing
between races. Under User Interface I turned on App LE scoring and
allowed for multiple 1sts, 2nds, etc. I then scored using "flights" as
the grouping.
I thought individual races would be scored using the assigned flights
(in inputted finishing places). That didn't happen. Instead, races
were scored using the flights for the last race. Flights for races #1
and #2 were ignored when scoring those races, which naturally screwed
up the scoring for those races.
I then rescored using "fleets" as the scoring group and assigned boats
to the fleets I wanted them to have for the final results. Again, the
flight assignments for individual races were ignored.
Attached are Alamitos Bay YC notes on flights… However these were created for the Naples Sabot Nationals, which does not have a format that changes flights during the series. I did test it in Sailwave V2 and thought I had it working, but it could be I just had the Sabot Nationals scenario working…
It is getting on toward Spring and time for me to try seeing if I can
use Sailwave for scoring.
My requirements:
5 race series
Handicap scoring (PHRF, ToD)
Class assignments will change from race to race
Last year I couldn’t get Sailwave to work so I did the scoring under
Excel. I’d like to try Sailwave again as folks think it OUGHT to be
able to meet my requirements. And, I figure there must be a scoring
program out there that I can use.
Last year I was recommended to use “flights” or “aliases.” Without
instructions for either I was kind of at sea (and figured it was
easier to write custom macros for Excel). I just spent Sunday trying
to figure out how to use “flights” and Sailwave doesn’t seem to be
working as intended (but maybe my expectations are unrealistic).
I generated a 6 boat, 3 race regatta with a couple of boats moving
from class to class in-between races. I implemented that by assigning
boats to a “flight” for each race, with assigned “flights” changing
between races. Under User Interface I turned on App LE scoring and
allowed for multiple 1sts, 2nds, etc. I then scored using “flights” as
the grouping.
I thought individual races would be scored using the assigned flights
(in inputted finishing places). That didn’t happen. Instead, races
were scored using the flights for the last race. Flights for races #1
and #2 were ignored when scoring those races, which naturally screwed
up the scoring for those races.
I then rescored using “fleets” as the scoring group and assigned boats
to the fleets I wanted them to have for the final results. Again, the
flight assignments for individual races were ignored.
I wonder if anyone has a Sailwave file (.blw) that uses flights that
they could post for me to look at. There must be some setting that I
just cannot find that will make it work the way it should.
Attached are Alamitos Bay YC notes on flights... However these were
created for the Naples Sabot Nationals, which does not have a format
that changes flights during the series. I did test it in Sailwave V2
and thought I had it working, but it could be I just had the Sabot
Nationals scenario working..
···
From: art.engel
Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 6:58 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Trouble Using "Flights"
It is getting on toward Spring and time for me to try seeing if I can
use Sailwave for scoring.
My requirements:
5 race series
Handicap scoring (PHRF, ToD)
Class assignments will change from race to race
Last year I couldn't get Sailwave to work so I did the scoring under
Excel. I'd like to try Sailwave again as folks think it OUGHT to be
able to meet my requirements. And, I figure there must be a scoring
program out there that I can use.
Last year I was recommended to use "flights" or "aliases." Without
instructions for either I was kind of at sea (and figured it was
easier to write custom macros for Excel). I just spent Sunday trying
to figure out how to use "flights" and Sailwave doesn't seem to be
working as intended (but maybe my expectations are unrealistic).
I generated a 6 boat, 3 race regatta with a couple of boats moving
from class to class in-between races. I implemented that by assigning
boats to a "flight" for each race, with assigned "flights" changing
between races. Under User Interface I turned on App LE scoring and
allowed for multiple 1sts, 2nds, etc. I then scored using "flights" as
the grouping.
I thought individual races would be scored using the assigned flights
(in inputted finishing places). That didn't happen. Instead, races
were scored using the flights for the last race. Flights for races #1
and #2 were ignored when scoring those races, which naturally screwed
up the scoring for those races.
I then rescored using "fleets" as the scoring group and assigned boats
to the fleets I wanted them to have for the final results. Again, the
flight assignments for individual races were ignored.
I have examples in my archives but which do you want? Static
colour group assignments, where a boat stays in the same colour for the whole regatta
and the colour group’s race in a round robin, or the flight assignments
are made by a seeding committee for the first race of day of races and there
after boats are reassigned by based on some criteria?
I have done both here in the UK; the first is used
frequently by Topper & Optimist classes Blue, Yellow, Green, Red colour
groups which requires 3 races for all boats to have sailed against each other
once, 6 races for all boats to have sailed against each other twice and so on.
The second with flight reassignments was when I was scoring the
29er & 49er classes at Weymouth in 2006, here reassignment was after each
days racing and based on the results available at 20:00hrs BST each day
irrespective of any pending Jury decisions.
Note – from Sailwave Help file
*You only need to use the Flight field when competitors change
flight (the event may call it a fleet) on a daily basis - e.g. when doing App
LE Add C type events. If the competitors stay in their assigned fleets,
please just use a suitable competitor field like Fleet or Division. The Flight
field is the only field that has a per race capability. *
I wonder if anyone has a Sailwave file (.blw)
that uses flights that
they could post for me to look at. There must be some setting that I
just cannot find that will make it work the way it should.
Attached are Alamitos Bay YC notes on flights… However these were
created for the Naples Sabot Nationals, which does not have a format
that changes flights during the series. I did test it in Sailwave V2
and thought I had it working, but it could be I just had the Sabot
Nationals scenario working…
It is getting on toward Spring and time for me to try seeing if I can
use Sailwave for scoring.
My requirements:
5 race series
Handicap scoring (PHRF, ToD)
Class assignments will change from race to race
Last year I couldn’t get Sailwave to work so I did the scoring under
Excel. I’d like to try Sailwave again as folks think it OUGHT to be
able to meet my requirements. And, I figure there must be a scoring
program out there that I can use.
Last year I was recommended to use “flights” or
“aliases.” Without
instructions for either I was kind of at sea (and figured it was
easier to write custom macros for Excel). I just spent Sunday trying
to figure out how to use “flights” and Sailwave doesn’t seem to
be
working as intended (but maybe my expectations are unrealistic).
I generated a 6 boat, 3 race regatta with a couple of boats moving
from class to class in-between races. I implemented that by assigning
boats to a “flight” for each race, with assigned
“flights” changing
between races. Under User Interface I turned on App LE scoring and
allowed for multiple 1sts, 2nds, etc. I then scored using
“flights” as
the grouping.
I thought individual races would be scored using the assigned flights
(in inputted finishing places). That didn’t happen. Instead, races
were scored using the flights for the last race. Flights for races #1
and #2 were ignored when scoring those races, which naturally screwed
up the scoring for those races.
I then rescored using “fleets” as the scoring group and assigned
boats
to the fleets I wanted them to have for the final results. Again, the
flight assignments for individual races were ignored.
I want to have boats "randomly" change groupings from day to day but
their total score at the end will be the sum of their race scores. The
reason is - in handicap racing we have "ratings" but we try to put
equal numbers of boats in each fleet for each race. That means a few
boats may change fleet from race to race even though their rating says
the same.
When you "score" a series Sailwave goes back and rescores all previous
races. That is a problem since it reassigns boats in prior races to
the different (wrong) fleets, since a boat can only have one fleet per
series. It was suggested to me that "flights" is what I want, since a
boat will generate points by "flight" per race. But when adding scores
at the end you can use some other criteria for grouping boats (such as
fleet). Hence, I am trying to figure out how to use "flights."
My example file treats 1st in A flight as tied with 1st in B flight
and assigns each 1.5 points, despite my selecting "allow multiple 1sts."
I'm not sure but the 29er and 49er qualifications sound like they
might be closer to what I am trying to do (the final results are on
the Web and don't use flights so presumably it was the qualifiers that
did).
I have examples in my archives but which do you want? Static colour
group assignments, where a boat stays in the same colour for the whole
regatta and the colour group's race in a round robin, or the flight
assignments are made by a seeding committee for the first race of day of
races and there after boats are reassigned by based on some criteria?
I have done both here in the UK; the first is used frequently by Topper
& Optimist classes Blue, Yellow, Green, Red colour groups which requires
3 races for all boats to have sailed against each other once, 6 races
for all boats to have sailed against each other twice and so on.
The second with flight reassignments was when I was scoring the 29er &
49er classes at Weymouth in 2006, here reassignment was after each days
racing and based on the results available at 20:00hrs BST each day
irrespective of any pending Jury decisions.
Note - from Sailwave Help file
You only need to use the Flight field when competitors change flight
(the event may call it a fleet) on a daily basis - e.g. when doing App
LE Add C type events. If the competitors stay in their assigned fleets,
please just use a suitable competitor field like Fleet or Division. The
Flight field is the only field that has a per race capability.
I wonder if anyone has a Sailwave file (.blw) that uses flights that
they could post for me to look at. There must be some setting that I
just cannot find that will make it work the way it should.
Art
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com> ,
"S. Mark Townsend"
<s_mark_townsend@> wrote:
>
> Art,
>
> Attached are Alamitos Bay YC notes on flights... However these were
created for the Naples Sabot Nationals, which does not have a format
that changes flights during the series. I did test it in Sailwave V2
and thought I had it working, but it could be I just had the Sabot
Nationals scenario working..
>
>
>
>
> From: art.engel
> Sent: Sunday, March 01, 2009 6:58 PM
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: [sailwave] Trouble Using "Flights"
>
>
> It is getting on toward Spring and time for me to try seeing if I can
> use Sailwave for scoring.
>
> My requirements:
>
> 5 race series
> Handicap scoring (PHRF, ToD)
> Class assignments will change from race to race
>
> Last year I couldn't get Sailwave to work so I did the scoring under
> Excel. I'd like to try Sailwave again as folks think it OUGHT to be
> able to meet my requirements. And, I figure there must be a scoring
> program out there that I can use.
>
> Last year I was recommended to use "flights" or "aliases." Without
> instructions for either I was kind of at sea (and figured it was
> easier to write custom macros for Excel). I just spent Sunday trying
> to figure out how to use "flights" and Sailwave doesn't seem to be
> working as intended (but maybe my expectations are unrealistic).
>
> I generated a 6 boat, 3 race regatta with a couple of boats moving
> from class to class in-between races. I implemented that by assigning
> boats to a "flight" for each race, with assigned "flights" changing
> between races. Under User Interface I turned on App LE scoring and
> allowed for multiple 1sts, 2nds, etc. I then scored using "flights" as
> the grouping.
>
> I thought individual races would be scored using the assigned flights
> (in inputted finishing places). That didn't happen. Instead, races
> were scored using the flights for the last race. Flights for races #1
> and #2 were ignored when scoring those races, which naturally screwed
> up the scoring for those races.
>
> I then rescored using "fleets" as the scoring group and assigned boats
> to the fleets I wanted them to have for the final results. Again, the
> flight assignments for individual races were ignored.
>
> So, is there a way to use flights and if so HOW?
>
> Art
>
> Files (htm published files and blw file) can be found at:
> http://www.racingrules.org/scoring
>
if boats are changing flight/fleet/whatevertheSIscallit per race - in
Sailwave you must use the flight field - it’s the only field that has
per race values - and you can see them in summary from the drop down
list in the toolbar and in the flight tab of each competitor.
Keep things simple - only model one class per file - and score
everybody as one group - the flights just being an artificial split and
not a real one - the boats are still in the same race. Use starts to
model flight X sailing with flight Y etc - otherwise sailwave doesnt
know who’s sailing with who. if you do that the results can come in in
mixed order - which can be very powerful - two courses having a shared
finish line…
Get the Qs going then come back re: finals.
NB: we have found that while there is an Addendum C every set if SIs is
different hence the generic approach rather than a “addendum c” mode.
The most common variation is that the Q scores are fixed going into the
finals - i.e. the discards do not float across Q and F a la Addendum
C…
I can't find the "summary from the drop down list in the toolbar" but
my assigned flights are showing up for each individual boat under the
"Flights" tab under "Right-Click|Edit competitor."
I solved part of my problem. My test file was scoring 1st in A flight
as tied with 1st in B flight and assigning each boat 1.5 points (which
wouldn't be correct anyway since (1+1)/2 = 1.0 not 1.5). I had the two
flights starting together but wanted them scored separately. It turns
out that isn't possible. So, I created a separate start (under Edit
race) for each flight in each race but then had the two "starts" start
together (assigned them the same start time). Now my two 1st-place
boats in separate flights are each getting 1 pt.
However, things still aren't working as I expected. It appears that
for each race points are being assigned not based on the flights for
that race but on the flights for the last race (#3 in my test file).
Plus, for race #2 points are being assigned based on some phantom
flight (so for that race there are 3 1sts and 3 2nds instead of just
two of each).
Art
PS - The qualifying and final stuff is WAY more complicated than I
want. I just want to score a simple regatta. The problem is that when
I hit "score series" after the last race the program goes back and
rescores all the prior races. It would be nice if I had the option to
"score races" separately from "score series" and all the latter option
would do is sum the existing race scores, not create new ones by
rescoring earlier races.
Art, can you attach your series and the SIs. It’s
just a question of setup - when that’s done is all works fine. The
trouble is everybody wants something slightly different so the setup is
necessarily general…
There is nothing special about the SIs - they say "score using PHRF ToD," straight "add up the scores" for a total series score. The issue is what happens when the PHRF Division is split into A and B Fleets but they change from race to race (Race #1 is A=0-60, B=61+; Race #2 is A=0-87, B=88+). A boat with a rating of 75 will be in the B Fleet for Race #1 and the A Fleet for Race #2. So, I cannot score using A and B Fleets and figure I should use Flights instead.
My test file has 6 boats (#1-#6) divided into A and B Flights for each race. Race #1, A=1,2,3; B=4,5,6. Race #2, A=1,2; B=3,4,5,6. Race #3, A=1,2,3,4; B=5,6. The directory has a results file that makes the situation clearer (the summary at the top shows Flight and position; from that the problem is obvious).
The points just aren't being assigned according to fleet. I must have some setting wrong but I can't figure out which one it is.
It looks like you are scoring "groups of competitors" seperatly.
For what I think you want to achieve you should be scoring "all
competitors as one group" and let the flight assignments work out the
points.
The flights are per race whereas the fleet is overall so it is
effectively taking each fleet and then doing flight based scoring within
each fleet.
There is nothing special about the SIs - they say "score
using PHRF ToD," straight "add up the scores" for a total
series score. The issue is what happens when the PHRF
Division is split into A and B Fleets but they change from
race to race (Race #1 is A=0-60, B=61+; Race #2 is A=0-87,
B=88+). A boat with a rating of 75 will be in the B Fleet for
Race #1 and the A Fleet for Race #2. So, I cannot score using
A and B Fleets and figure I should use Flights instead.
My test file has 6 boats (#1-#6) divided into A and B Flights
for each race. Race #1, A=1,2,3; B=4,5,6. Race #2, A=1,2;
B=3,4,5,6. Race #3, A=1,2,3,4; B=5,6. The directory has a
results file that makes the situation clearer (the summary at
the top shows Flight and position; from that the problem is obvious).
The points just aren't being assigned according to fleet. I
must have some setting wrong but I can't figure out which one it is.
Before I look at your file just a note about the 1.5s you were seeing.
Sailwave can handle ties in a split start context - and this is what
you were seeing because you hadn’t separated the flights with starts.
Sailwave needs to know how the boats are sailing WRT starts otherwise
it doesnt know how to allocate 1,2,3… for each start - I cant assume
one flight per start because it’s often rotational blue+green then
red+green etc etc…
In a non-split start race for example places of 1,1,2 results in 1.5,
1.5, 3.0 so in a split start race with no starts setup you get the same
what you were seeing.
NB: With a split start race setup correctly and a tie in a race,
Salwave still handles it - i.e.
start1 places = 1,2,3,4,5 - no ties in this start
start2 places = 1,1,2,3,4 - tied first place or even if it was recorded
as (1,1,3,4,5)
The points for that split-start race as a whole then become:-
1.0, 1.5, 1.5, 2.0, 3.0, 3.0, 4.0, 4.0, 5.0, 5.0
I think Addendum C is a nice simple concept - where it falls down (IMO)
is the bit about scoring as individual fleets for the finals - this
means that points for DNF change at that point and creates all sorts of
problems for software - what would be more elegant is that points for
DNF are based on the biggest start throughout Q and F - but - that
unfortunately falls over if F is split into starts (fleets) that are
considerably different sizes to Q start sizes… Because of the
floating discards you can’t split Q and F into two files… Sailwave
does handle it but I’m not totally happy with the solution. We’ll get
there after sorting out for Q races…
Hi Art,
I scored the series as one group and the results look OK…
When using split starts (flights) don’t score by fleet /group - split
starts are all part of the same race so you score as one group.
To summarise - enable split starts in the scoring system (as you have
done), setup the starts, assign the flights (either by hand - double
click on a result cell as set the flight) or using the tools menu and
the flight rotation tools) then score as one group. Reassign flights
as necessary and rescore etc. In a split start context when viewing the results the flight is also
shown:-
NB: The flight column shows the flight assignment -
since flights is a per race thing this is about the best it can do.
NB: After using the rotation tools if you want to manually tweak who is
in which flight just double click the result cell and edit it by
hand. The result cells contain information dependent on
competitor+race… Colin
There is nothing special about the SIs - they say “score using PHRF ToD,” straight “add up the scores” for a total series score. The issue is what happens when the PHRF Division is split into A and B Fleets but they change from race to race (Race #1 is A=0-60, B=61+; Race #2 is A=0-87, B=88+). A boat with a rating of 75 will be in the B Fleet for Race #1 and the A Fleet for Race #2. So, I cannot score using A and B Fleets and figure I should use Flights instead.
My test file has 6 boats (#1-#6) divided into A and B Flights for each race. Race #1, A=1,2,3; B=4,5,6. Race #2, A=1,2; B=3,4,5,6. Race #3, A=1,2,3,4; B=5,6. The directory has a results file that makes the situation clearer (the summary at the top shows Flight and position; from that the problem is obvious).
The points just aren’t being assigned according to fleet. I must have some setting wrong but I can’t figure out which one it is.
There is nothing special about the SIs - they say “score using PHRF ToD,” straight “add up the scores” for a total series score. The issue is what happens when the PHRF Division is split into A and B Fleets but they change from race to race (Race #1 is A=0-60, B=61+; Race #2 is A=0-87, B=88+). A boat with a rating of 75 will be in the B Fleet for Race #1 and the A Fleet for Race #2. So, I cannot score using A and B Fleets and figure I should use Flights instead.
My test file has 6 boats (#1-#6) divided into A and B Flights for each race. Race #1, A=1,2,3; B=4,5,6. Race #2, A=1,2; B=3,4,5,6. Race #3, A=1,2,3,4; B=5,6. The directory has a results file that makes the situation clearer (the summary at the top shows Flight and position; from that the problem is obvious).
The points just aren’t being assigned according to fleet. I must have some setting wrong but I can’t figure out which one it is.
Attached is the Sailwave file for the flight test series and below are the results. The major difference I think is I scored all the boats as a group. If you use flight to score groups of competitors it uses the flight assignment in the competitor record rather than the flight assignment for the race.
COLIN, The one problem that I have not been able to solve is how to publish the results for the individual flights in each race in a separate table. As they are scored as a single fleet, there is no option to print the results for the two flights on separate pages. With Art’s six boat example it is relatively easy to figure out where everyone finished in each flight. When you have a 180 Naples Sabot or Optimist fleet it’s difficult to find the winner of the second or third start as they are published as a single table
There is nothing special about the SIs - they say “score using PHRF ToD,” straight “add up the scores” for a total series score. The issue is what happens when the PHRF Division is split into A and B Fleets but they change from race to race (Race #1 is A=0-60, B=61+; Race #2 is A=0-87, B=88+). A boat with a rating of 75 will be in the B Fleet for Race #1 and the A Fleet for Race #2. So, I cannot score using A and B Fleets and figure I should use Flights instead.
My test file has 6 boats (#1-#6) divided into A and B Flights for each race. Race #1, A=1,2,3; B=4,5,6. Race #2, A=1,2; B=3,4,5,6. Race #3, A=1,2,3,4; B=5,6. The directory has a results file that makes the situation clearer (the summary at the top shows Flight and position; from that the problem is obvious).
The points just aren’t being assigned according to fleet. I must have some setting wrong but I can’t figure out which one it is.
Yes as far as could see the only problem with Art’s file was scoring by
group not as one race.
WRT separate tables, I’ve tried to do everything to emphasie that split
starts are not splt races… i.e. everybody is still in the same race
its just that becaus eof numbers people have been busted up into
separate starts and the multiple 1sts, 2nds etc stand…
However, if you view finishes (view mneu or toolbar) you’ll see the
flight is shown too. What about another view to show flight and
points/code. Then you could sort by race 1 and publish race 1. Not
separate tables but in flight order. That is an easy tweak, anything
else is non-trivial…