Hi,
If a boat is breaking RRS 30.2 in first start attempt, and again in the second start attempt, it should get 20% points + 20% points extra points.
How is that done in Sailwave?
It is NOT equal to 40%:
A total of 17 boats gives
20%=3.4 rounded to 3 points
20% in first start attempt and 20% in second start attempt gives 3 points + 3 points = 6 points
40% in Sailwave gives 6.8 points rounded to 7 points
Is there any way Sailwave can handle this?
Br.
Soren
Good question. Not only for ZFP but for also for penalties in points.
There is always a solution... handle the case by hand
Create new code ZFP2 in Ranking System and define Points as Place +6 and comment 2x 20% under rule 30.2
If needed (who knows?) create ZFP3...
Note that 18 boats gives ZFP 3.6 founded to 4 and 2 ZFP=8... 2 places lost for just one competitor more in the list.
Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "soren_b@ymail.com" <soren@badstue.name>
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:25 PM
Subject: [sailwave] two ZFPs in the same race?
Hi,
If a boat is breaking RRS 30.2 in first start attempt, and again in the second start attempt, it should get 20% points + 20% points extra points.
How is that done in Sailwave?
It is NOT equal to 40%:
A total of 17 boats gives
20%=3.4 rounded to 3 points
20% in first start attempt and 20% in second start attempt gives 3 points + 3 points = 6 points
40% in Sailwave gives 6.8 points rounded to 7 pointsIs there any way Sailwave can handle this?
Br.
Soren------------------------------------
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when there is more then one penalty code will it
always be N of the same code (to good to hope for!!) or can they be
different - example…?
CJ
Philippe DE TROY wrote:
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Colin,
The usual case is N times the same penalty.
However a RC may always change this…
And there can be a ZFP and a penalty for the same boat in the same race
The ultimate solution in an emergency could be to use RDG…
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From:
Colin Jenkins
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2009 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] two ZFPs in the same race?
when there is more then one penalty code will it always be N of the same code (to good to hope for!!) or can they be different - example…?
CJPhilippe DE TROY wrote:
Good question. Not only for ZFP but for also for penalties in points. There is always a solution... handle the case by hand Create new code ZFP2 in Ranking System and define Points as Place +6 and comment 2x 20% under rule 30.2 If needed (who knows?) create ZFP3... Note that 18 boats gives ZFP 3.6 founded to 4 and 2 ZFP=8... 2 places lost for just one competitor more in the list. Phil ----- Original Message ----- From: "soren_b@ymail.com" <soren@badstue.name> To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 24, 2009 11:25 PM Subject: [sailwave] two ZFPs in the same race?Hi, If a boat is breaking RRS 30.2 in first start attempt, and again in the second start attempt, it should get 20% points + 20% points extra points. How is that done in Sailwave? It is NOT equal to 40%: A total of 17 boats gives 20%=3.4 rounded to 3 points 20% in first start attempt and 20% in second start attempt gives 3 points + 3 points = 6 points 40% in Sailwave gives 6.8 points rounded to 7 points Is there any way Sailwave can handle this? Br. Soren ------------------------------------ -!- [http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/](http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/) -!- [http://www.sailing.org/](http://www.sailing.org/) -!- [http://www.sailwave.com/](http://www.sailwave.com/) -!- On-Line Sailwave help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Thompson's Sailwave User Manual is available from [http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf](http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf) ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links------------------------------------ -!- [http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/](http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/) -!- [http://www.sailing.org/](http://www.sailing.org/) -!- [http://www.sailwave.com/](http://www.sailwave.com/) -!- On-Line Sailwave help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Thompson's Sailwave User Manual is available from [http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf](http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf) ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/](http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/) <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: [http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/join](http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/join) (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: mailto:sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com mailto:sailwave-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: [http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/](http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/)
Has anyone ever heard of the progressiv handicap system. It seems to be based on Echo, but I cannot find any rules.
Gordon
Hi Gordon,
Sail100 (www.sail100.org) is a results system capable of progressive handicapping. As I understand it, in progressive mode it calculates a py number for each boat based on their past performance.
Dave
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Gordon Davies" <gordondavies@...> wrote:
Has anyone ever heard of the progressiv handicap system. It seems to be based on Echo, but I cannot find any rules.
Gordon
Having used progressive personal handicap systems in the past (where handicap for race N is based on results from races 1 to N-1 with some sort of weighting) I came to the conclusion that, although a transparent method (i.e. not influence of the handicapper, other than setting the initial handicap) they didn't really offer any other advantages over a fixed, but occaisionally revised (like golf?) system. The main reasons being that you never have enough data: too few races + relative dinghy performance is so weather dependant (I wouldn't recommend going there, either!), so you either end up with a heavily damped adjustment term, or the handicap is too dependant upon the last race sailed.
Now I just discuss handicaps with the main fleet captains at the start of the season, and monitor the relative performances after each race using the BCR output of Sailwave, plotting normalised (to mid fleet) BCR as a % vs result. The aim being to get all within a narrow band, and not the same sailors at the extremes each race.
HTH.
Mike
Lancing SC
Interesting to see your comment handicap is too dependant upon the last race sailed
I have used a system whereby I take the total of the individual race PH adjustment & divide it by the total number of races (simple average)
This has the effect of regular changes at the beginning, good for new sailors, but very minor changes once their PH has settled to their correct level
As far as weighting goes, my system is that I ignore the race
Nice & simple & it works!
The statisticians will no doubt argue that my system has lots of errors but strangely, the members have never complained about handicaps & it is still in use 10 years later!
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Croker
Sent: 30 June 2009 08:17
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: progressive handicap systems
Having used progressive personal handicap systems in the past (where handicap for race N is based on results from races 1 to N-1 with some sort of weighting) I came to the conclusion that, although a transparent method (i.e. not influence of the handicapper, other than setting the initial handicap) they didn’t really offer any other advantages over a fixed, but occaisionally revised (like golf?) system. The main reasons being that you never have enough data: too few races + relative dinghy performance is so weather dependant (I wouldn’t recommend going there, either!), so you either end up with a heavily damped adjustment term, or the handicap is too dependant upon the last race sailed.
Now I just discuss handicaps with the main fleet captains at the start of the season, and monitor the relative performances after each race using the BCR output of Sailwave, plotting normalised (to mid fleet) BCR as a % vs result. The aim being to get all within a narrow band, and not the same sailors at the extremes each race.
HTH.
Mike
Lancing SC
My problem is as a judge - if there is no written rule how do I sort out any requests for redress when competitors aren’t happy.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From:
Dave Cooper
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 8:45 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: progressive handicap system
Hi Gordon,
Sail100 (www.sail100.org ) is a results system capable of progressive handicapping. As I understand it, in progressive mode it calculates a py number for each boat based on their past performance.
Dave— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , “Gordon Davies” <gordondavies@…> wrote:
Has anyone ever heard of the progressiv handicap system. It seems to be based on Echo, but I cannot find any rules.
Gordon
You would need something in the Si saying how you were to approach the handicap.
Either you would be OK if the system was followed or you would have to say how it was done and this would not be a cause for redress to be granted.
Happy to help with a clause if contacted.
Mike Butterfield IRO IU IJ
From: Gordon Davies
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 9:18 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: progressive handicap system
My problem is as a judge - if there is no written rule how do I sort out any requests for redress when competitors aren’t happy.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Cooper
Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 8:45 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: progressive handicap system
Hi Gordon,
Sail100 (www.sail100.org ) is a results system capable of progressive handicapping. As I understand it, in progressive mode it calculates a py number for each boat based on their past performance.
Dave— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , “Gordon Davies” <gordondavies@…> wrote:
Has anyone ever heard of the progressiv handicap system. It seems to be based on Echo, but I cannot find any rules.
Gordon
Hi Mike, at Burghfield we have been using a sailwave based progressive
handicapping system for the last few years for our wednesday evening
series which would appear to be very solid and reliable with very few
complaints…
How they calculate the numbers I don’t know, but check it out.
Simon
Mike Croker wrote:
http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/news/?article=147204
Having used progressive personal handicap systems in the past
(where handicap for race N is based on results from races 1 to N-1 with
some sort of weighting) I came to the conclusion that, although a
transparent method (i.e. not influence of the handicapper, other than
setting the initial handicap) they didn’t really offer any other
advantages over a fixed, but occaisionally revised (like golf?) system.
The main reasons being that you never have enough data: too few races +
relative dinghy performance is so weather dependant (I wouldn’t
recommend going there, either!), so you either end up with a heavily
damped adjustment term, or the handicap is too dependant upon the last
race sailed.
Now I just discuss handicaps with the main fleet captains at the start
of the season, and monitor the relative performances after each race
using the BCR output of Sailwave, plotting normalised (to mid fleet)
BCR as a % vs result. The aim being to get all within a narrow band,
and not the same sailors at the extremes each race.
HTH.
Mike
Lancing SC
-- ______________________________________________________
Simon Smith
BT Day 01252 860264 Eve 01252 878032
Mathematically it never gets to 'the correct level', does it, even for a consistent sailor? So if you get the early PH 'wrong' e.g. too generous, then it will take a lot of races to get this close to 'right', which I think is why our old system, which I inherited, had some weighting towards the most recent performances.
However, I do like the idea of your system, provided the handicapper can tweak numbers now and again(!) as it will encourage the consistent improver, which is one reason for PH, IMHO. I've just checked the last 7 PH races that our most inconsistent sailor (it's the boat - RS700 - not the nut on the tiller) has done and the % BCRs to mid-fleet were:
-2, +2, -3, -8, +4, +8, +3 which sort of proves your point 
So, be honest Ralph, do you ever tweak someone's handicap, or are they written in stone?
Regards
Mike
Lancing SC
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@...> wrote:
I have used a system whereby I take the total of the individual race PH
adjustment & divide it by the total number of races (simple average)
This has the effect of regular changes at the beginning, good for new
sailors, but very minor changes once their PH has settled to their correct
level
I did weight result for the first 2 races 60% & 80% but by 3 races, the new member would have established some sort of pattern - usually not very good for beginners
Members had to have completed a minimum number of counting races before they could be considered for the PH result
Also, I retained the option to adjust handicaps if they were obviously wrong or ignore certain races eg extreme weather
As Mike Butterfield said, as long as everyone knows what the rules are, they cannot claim redress
I did publish the manner in which the PH would be calculated but to be honest, no-one ever considered redress as it was a bit of fun & the main prize was always for the best ‘real’ result
The PH result provided the opportunity for some of the lesser able sailors to collect prizes which is never a bad thing
I guess what really made the system work was that the members seemed happy to trust me & knew that I would listen if they felt something was not right
Within 20 or so races, the handicap lists soon settled into a pattern with PHs ranging from -100 to +150 (adjustments to boat PY)
Not sure what method you are using but mine was to calculate the PY that they sailed to based upon a standard (average) time for the race (excluding worst x results & best y results)
This way, a movement of 5 - 10 points was not massively significant & it allowed me to determine a ‘starting PH’ if they sailed another boat
Re your final comment, nothing must ever be written in stone.
The rules are only right until someone identifies an error or a better way of doing things 
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mike Croker
Sent: 30 June 2009 14:01
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: progressive handicap systems
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, “Ralph Tingle” <rat@…> wrote:
I have used a system whereby I take the total of the individual race PH
adjustment & divide it by the total number of races (simple average)
This has the effect of regular changes at the beginning, good for new
sailors, but very minor changes once their PH has settled to their correct
level
Mathematically it never gets to ‘the correct level’, does it, even for a consistent sailor? So if you get the early PH ‘wrong’ e.g. too generous, then it will take a lot of races to get this close to ‘right’, which I think is why our old system, which I inherited, had some weighting towards the most recent performances.
However, I do like the idea of your system, provided the handicapper can tweak numbers now and again(!) as it will encourage the consistent improver, which is one reason for PH, IMHO. I’ve just checked the last 7 PH races that our most inconsistent sailor (it’s the boat - RS700 - not the nut on the tiller) has done and the % BCRs to mid-fleet were:
-2, +2, -3, -8, +4, +8, +3 which sort of proves your point
So, be honest Ralph, do you ever tweak someone’s handicap, or are they written in stone?
Regards
Mike
Lancing SC