A problem I see is where a laptop is being used on board the committee boat, out in the bay. Technically they might get an internet connection via their mobile phone but here in UK that is hugely expensive and so not feasible. Why bother with people who won't use Windows (even though we all hate it sometimes!)
--
Graham Pinkney
Club Administrator
office@stmawessailing.co.uk
"Why bother with people who won't use Windows (even though we all hate it sometimes!)"
That's a tempting comment. Although I use Windows, I have to admit Apple Mac OSX is FAR better. But you can run Sailwave on a Mac.
IanF
ClubMail wrote:
A problem I see is where a laptop is being used on board the committee boat, out in the bay. Technically they might get an internet connection via their mobile phone but here in UK that is hugely expensive and so not feasible. Why bother with people who won't use Windows (even though we all hate it sometimes!)
ClubMail wrote:
Why bother with people who won’t use Windows (even though
we all hate it sometimes!)
Why bother with people who will use windows?
Actually thats not the issue in my view - its NOT the PLATFORM that is
the problem. I use linux and Windows, and it runs fine under wine.
The issue is that I have 4 computers running sailwave. 1 at the club,
1 linux PC at home, a linux netbook and a windows laptop. The club one
is obvious, the laptop / netbook have their uses for the club when the
club PC is inaccessible (its not well possitioned - so during events
you get crowded by competitors!), the home linux machine is where I
live [literally in front of it]!
The issue for me is where do I store the data? Which copy is the
master copy? Put it on the web and I can edit it from ‘anywhere’
(provided anywhere can access the web!). I have two other users who
may also want to edit it.
The second advantage is: Design it well enough and people can access
layered information in a more organised way. So you’d land on a series
summary page (like the current contents page) that would let you
navigate to the summary, then the results detail all of which you can
do now. But then click the sail number and it’ll ask if you want other
results from this boat? And click the helm and ask for other results
from this helm… Suddenly you have power! Its just not achievable
with flat html.
PHP with MySql is the way to go 
It should be possible to create a
self install for a standalone PC (windows) that has a copy of a WAMP on
it to allow user to open borwser and point to to locally work on it. You can do this with Joomla so its certainly
possible. (Suspect not possible on mobile devices but I think you’d be
thinking they have connectivity?)
To some extent it matters less if the data entry is client based
(provided it’ll still play across platforms).
Data Protection Act - it applies to your current sailwave software
too… …just no-one cares! However, if you are putting things like
medical onto the web then you MUST put in 128bit encryption as a
minimum IMO. (For those that do comply with the DPA, in the UK that
should mean storing data in Europe too). I totally agree there is a problem when people don’t have Broadband,
and server based will make this harder for me as that club PC I
mentioned has no internet access as club is too remote to get BB (plus
its classed as business premises so BT want £30 a month vs £10, on top
of their £45 line rental).
So it needs to have a way to make the database portable? So I can
enter it into my PC at the club, put it on a stick and take it home and
work on it at home/club’s server?
Presumably EasyTimer could be designed to interface directly in? Live
results on the web!
Scriptable scoring sounds cool. As does online subscription. And
don’t forget a dinghy database that knows competitor’s previous
information…
PHP would make it community contributable which is good as at the
moment our hands are rather tied.
Would be good if that had bridges to some of the common content
management systems (Joomla, Drupal etc)
Can’t wait
C
Hi Calum
I don't understand why this is a problem, surely you just save your .blw's to a usb stick, or if all the machines have internet access just ftp them to your server?
There may be a case for adding to the current Sailwave a save to remote server option, either by using a PHP backend or by ftp. That seems like a fairly minor upgrade compared with the work in creating a full php version.
cheers
Tony
At 00:50 19/12/2009, Calum Polwart wrote:
ClubMail wrote:
Why bother with people who won't use Windows (even though
we all hate it sometimes!)Why bother with people who will use windows?
Actually thats not the issue in my view - its NOT the PLATFORM that is the problem. I use linux and Windows, and it runs fine under wine. The issue is that I have 4 computers running sailwave. 1 at the club, 1 linux PC at home, a linux netbook and a windows laptop. The club one is obvious, the laptop / netbook have their uses for the club when the club PC is inaccessible (its not well possitioned - so during events you get crowded by competitors!), the home linux machine is where I live [literally in front of it]!
The issue for me is where do I store the data? Which copy is the master copy? Put it on the web and I can edit it from 'anywhere' (provided anywhere can access the web!). I have two other users who may also want to edit it.
The second advantage is: Design it well enough and people can access layered information in a more organised way. So you'd land on a series summary page (like the current contents page) that would let you navigate to the summary, then the results detail all of which you can do now. But then click the sail number and it'll ask if you want other results from this boat? And click the helm and ask for other results from this helm... Suddenly you have power! Its just not achievable with flat html.
PHP with MySql is the way to go
To some extent it matters less if the data entry is client based (provided it'll still play across platforms).
Data Protection Act - it applies to your current sailwave software too... ...just no-one cares! However, if you are putting things like medical onto the web then you MUST put in 128bit encryption as a minimum IMO. (For those that do comply with the DPA, in the UK that should mean storing data in Europe too).
I totally agree there is a problem when people don't have Broadband, and server based will make this harder for me as that club PC I mentioned has no internet access as club is too remote to get BB (plus its classed as business premises so BT want £30 a month vs £10, on top of their £45 line rental).
So it needs to have a way to make the database portable? So I can enter it into my PC at the club, put it on a stick and take it home and work on it at home/club's server?
Presumably EasyTimer could be designed to interface directly in? Live results on the web!
Scriptable scoring sounds cool. As does online subscription. And don't forget a dinghy database that knows competitor's previous information...
PHP would make it community contributable which is good as at the moment our hands are rather tied.
Would be good if that had bridges to some of the common content management systems (Joomla, Drupal etc)
Can't wait
C
Tony Tucker wrote:
Hi Calum
I don’t understand why this is a
problem, surely you just save your .blw’s to a
usb stick,
Which is what we do - however - if I copy the files to USB and then
take them home and edit them this week and am not at the club on Sunday
and someone else adds new results on Sunday I have two unmatched files
or if all the machines have internet
access just ftp them to your server?
Thats possible although you still end up with local and remote copies,
even with a save remotely protocol its unusual to have a copy open
across the net, instead you’d be looking to copy it locally open it,
edit it and save it back. FTP doesn’t let you edit a file live (or at
least not easily) - its a transfer protocol not a remote mount. You
could use a WebDAV mount or Samba Share in theory to do it… but its
not somethign you’ll find on a budget web server package.
There may be a case for adding to the
current Sailwave a save to remote server option,
either by using a PHP backend or by ftp. That
seems like a fairly minor upgrade compared with
the work in creating a full php version.
Putting a blw file on the server doesn’t offer all the advantages -
some of what YOU can do in sailwave, but your audience can’t with the
published file (eg show only certain results, sort by different methods
If you can programme in your series races in advance and list them
online you save duplication as you then no-longer need a club diary
online…
Honestly havign this in an online format is a GREAT idea. Having it in
a development langague that is Open and we could all contribute too is
an ever GREATER idea.
cheers
Tony
Tony,
It’s not the solution you were looking for, but you might want to check out a service called “Dropbox”: https://www.dropbox.com/
This is a file synchronization system. You run the Dropbox client on all the machines that you want to have synchronized files. You then get an enhanced folder that you can read/write to, and it will automatically synchronize the contents to the remote computers. I use this for many things, and it’s really quite convenient. There’s even a web interface that will let you download files when you’re on the go, and a “public” folder that you can drop files into, and then share them with the world.
I have been using dropbox for over a year, and I’ll be using it for our club scoring in the upcoming season so that I don’t have to run down to the club to make corrections, publish to web, etc.
Regards,
Patrick
Patrick Toal
ptoal@takeflight.ca
On 2009-12-19, at 10:11 AM, Calum Polwart wrote:
Tony Tucker wrote:
Hi Calum
I don’t understand why this is a
problem, surely you just save your .blw’s to a
usb stick,
Which is what we do - however - if I copy the files to USB and then take them home and edit them this week and am not at the club on Sunday and someone else adds new results on Sunday I have two unmatched files
or if all the machines have internet
access just ftp them to your server?
Thats possible although you still end up with local and remote copies, even with a save remotely protocol its unusual to have a copy open across the net, instead you’d be looking to copy it locally open it, edit it and save it back. FTP doesn’t let you edit a file live (or at least not easily) - its a transfer protocol not a remote mount. You could use a WebDAV mount or Samba Share in theory to do it… but its not somethign you’ll find on a budget web server package.
There may be a case for adding to the
current Sailwave a save to remote server option,
either by using a PHP backend or by ftp. That
seems like a fairly minor upgrade compared with
the work in creating a full php version.
Putting a blw file on the server doesn’t offer all the advantages - some of what YOU can do in sailwave, but your audience can’t with the published file (eg show only certain results, sort by different methods - sail no, place, points, helm name, class, fleet et) - even if sailwave-online doesn’t offer it as a feature within because the data would be readable from a MySQL database and using PHP I could write a web page to show the data… thats MUCH more powerful than we currently have. (In theory I could do it from the blw XML file but trust me its not so simple - I’ve tried!)
If you can programme in your series races in advance and list them online you save duplication as you then no-longer need a club diary online…
Honestly havign this in an online format is a GREAT idea. Having it in a development langague that is Open and we could all contribute too is an ever GREATER idea.
cheers
Tony
Hi Patrick
Possibly the better solution is to enhance Sailwave with a remote save option that talks to a PHP / ASP backend, that saves the data to a database on the web server. That seems to give everyone what they want.
Users who are happy with the local storage continue to use Sailwave as they do today. Users like Calum can use the remote approach, and get the advantage that the data is stored in a remote db, so they can post process that as they want, and most of all, it's not a huge development effort, and we still get the ui advantages of a local application.
cheers
Tony
At 15:41 19/12/2009, Patrick Toal wrote:
Tony,
It's not the solution you were looking for, but you might want to check out a service called "Dropbox": <https://www.dropbox.com/>https://www.dropbox.com/
This is a file synchronization system. You run the Dropbox client on all the machines that you want to have synchronized files. You then get an enhanced folder that you can read/write to, and it will automatically synchronize the contents to the remote computers. I use this for many things, and it's really quite convenient. There's even a web interface that will let you download files when you're on the go, and a "public" folder that you can drop files into, and then share them with the world.
I have been using dropbox for over a year, and I'll be using it for our club scoring in the upcoming season so that I don't have to run down to the club to make corrections, publish to web, etc.
Regards,
Patrick
---
Patrick Toal
<mailto:ptoal@takeflight.ca>ptoal@takeflight.caOn 2009-12-19, at 10:11 AM, Calum Polwart wrote:
Tony Tucker wrote:
Hi Calum
I don't understand why this is a
problem, surely you just save your .blw's to a
usb stick,Which is what we do - however - if I copy the files to USB and then take them home and edit them this week and am not at the club on Sunday and someone else adds new results on Sunday I have two unmatched files
or if all the machines have internet
access just ftp them to your server?Thats possible although you still end up with local and remote copies, even with a save remotely protocol its unusual to have a copy open across the net, instead you'd be looking to copy it locally open it, edit it and save it back. FTP doesn't let you edit a file live (or at least not easily) - its a transfer protocol not a remote mount. You could use a WebDAV mount or Samba Share in theory to do it... but its not somethign you'll find on a budget web server package.
There may be a case for adding to the
current Sailwave a save to remote server option,
either by using a PHP backend or by ftp. That
seems like a fairly minor upgrade compared with
the work in creating a full php version.Putting a blw file on the server doesn't offer all the advantages - some of what YOU can do in sailwave, but your audience can't with the published file (eg show only certain results, sort by different methods - sail no, place, points, helm name, class, fleet et) - even if sailwave-online doesn't offer it as a feature within because the data would be readable from a MySQL database and using PHP I could write a web page to show the data... thats MUCH more powerful than we currently have. (In theory I could do it from the blw XML file but trust me its not so simple - I've tried!)
If you can programme in your series races in advance and list them online you save duplication as you
Actually thats not the issue in my view - its NOT the PLATFORM that is
the problem. ...
The issue for me is where do I store the data? Which copy is the master
copy? Put it on the web and I can edit it from 'anywhere'.
This has been a very interesting and important discussion about the location and platform of Sailwave system. Here is some random thoughts. I think, one of the most important points of view is flexibility, which can be achieved by modularity.
There are many issues to decide. Each of them can be solved in many ways.
1. Location of data
2. Location of software (logical rules)
3. User interface for data entry
4. User interface for the public accessing the results
1 & 2. No successful web service has a single central computer today, the data and processing must be distributed. A club should choose if they use it's own server or a common server maintained by for example by a national sailing federation. If you like, all member clubs could share the rules and the list of participants mastered by the federation.
3. It is probably easiest to use a web browser, then virtually all devices can access it. (We should not put too much weight on internet access costs, they are dropping down rapidly.) A better user experience can be created by creating a Java client optimized for different devices like mobile phone.
4. The public can have much better view to the results and competitor information as they could be easily linked to each others.
The software could share base information of competitors, if they had an id something like "member123.club_x@swserver.fsf.fi" (where fsf.fi is a national federation).
I totally agree there is a problem when people don't have Broadband, and
server based will make this harder for me as that club PC I mentioned
has no internet access as club is too remote to get BB (plus its classed
as business premises so BT want £30 a month vs £10, on top of their £45
line rental).
(By the way, there has been some efforts to create a common result service for different clubs: http://www.sailingregister.com/mainpage.html?locale=en_GB . They don't have scoring but used Sailwave input files.)
-- Juha Mäkeläinen
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, Calum Polwart <yahoo@...> wrote: