I have been running results at a small cruiser racing club for the past 2 years using ECHO handicapping ( we are in Ireland).
While I can see that there are many parameters that you can adjust in ECHO, I see that in NHC many of those choices are effectively made for you.
The characteristics of our racing are that we have a small fleet (10 to 18 boats) which race regularly over a 22 weekly race season (typical race is 2 to 3 hours - 12 miles) broken into 4 series of 5 races, plus 2 longer races (5 to 6 hours) about 25 miles at which far more boats (upwards of 50) compete. On any given race day, there will be a wide variety of boats competing (so the active fleet is inconsistent in its composition), with widely differing crew capabilities (the same boat in 2 races may compete with quite different crews) and in widely differing winds (so the results for 1 boat might be all light winds and for another all heavy winds). So it is inherently difficult to get any consistency. Looking at results after the fact, we see that races are won more often by the irregular competitors who come out in conditions that suit their boat, and where they crew up appropriately rather than the regulars who come out all the time with often the same crew composition. Our handicapping adjustments have been slow to penalise the better performers (relatively), especially when they don’t race regularly, probably because our weightings weren’t adjusted properly.
I would like to use NHC in 2015 as that seems to have thought through most of the issues that might impact our fleet and tries to adjust that fairly and consistently, but also reasonably progressively too. The RYA does a good job explaining (to non mathematicians like me) what the methodology is trying to do. Is there a similar explanation available for ECHO.
My preference is to use a handicapping system that leaves the judgement out as much as possible, and so wanted the advice of this expert group as to which is better ECHO or NHC in our particular circumstances.
Thanks for your help!
The only write-up that I'm aware of, for ECHO, is on the ISA site.
https://www.sailing.ie/Portals/0/Racing%20Section/Echo/ECHO%20Guidelines.pdf
Since you're in Ireland, you should be able to gently badger the ISA to provide the methodology behind ECHO (if that PDF isn't helpful), and they might be able to provide some help on determining how to make it fit your racing conditions.
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On 17/02/2015 17:33, patrick.blaney@phblaney.com [sailwave] wrote:
I would like to use NHC in 2015 as that seems to have thought through most of the issues that might impact our fleet and tries to adjust that fairly and consistently, but also reasonably progressively too. The RYA does a good job explaining (to non mathematicians like me) what the methodology is trying to do. Is there a similar explanation available for ECHO.
AIUI NHC was designed for entry level racing after a very good look at Echo when Portsmouth Yardstick for cruisers had ceased to be viable due to low usage. I think the RYA would always recommend IRC for racers who are serious enough to do the administration to get certificates, but for those who are not the personal handicap system of NHC, with the success of Echo as a model, seemed to be the only viable way to go.
I should have thought that, as you are in Ireland, there would be considerable advantages to using Echo rather than NHC. Have you tried rescoring past events using NHC? I bet you’d find there is less difference than you might think. Mind you when two scoring/handicap systems do produce different results one is then left with the challenge of working out which one is “right”, something I’ve never really been sure how to do.
Echo and NHC are very similar in concept.
With Sailwave and the external template mode you can do either, although the documentation for Echo is lacking and at one event where I tried to score along side the official results I couldn’t get the same results as there was some subjective alterations to handicaps which in my opinion (if it is known that it is going on) causes bad feeling and distrust. NHC if you stick to its rules doesn’t allow these. Although if you wanted to implement such a system you could do it with Sailwave.
NHC does not require anywhere near the skill level of the scorer as would Echo and is therefore suited to a wider audience.
What is promoted is that the racing be dual scored with a fixed rating (where this comes from is a separate discussion) and a personal / performance handicap.
Neither Echo or NHC pretend to be an alternative to a fixed rating system but they do offer a way of showing and rewarding improving sailors and they should make the results closer. With these systems no one can always win (or always be last) unless they are constantly improving/ failing as their handicaps will adjust to prevent this.
So a fixed rating system is certainly the best in the ideal world but the conditions for the ideal are not practically obtainable. Even better is a handicap system that takes into effect the performance of the boat in different conditions.
Running a personal / progressive handicap system should stimulate interest and reward the improving sailors (sure you can sail badly in some races and your handicap will fall but then you have poor positions to put into a series so this will offset any gains you get by winning a later race). If it doesn’t then don’t bother. But as a scoring program Sailwave can do what ever is required.
Jon
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On 18 February 2015 at 10:18, yho@devboats.co.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
AIUI NHC was designed for entry level racing after a very good look at Echo when Portsmouth Yardstick for cruisers had ceased to be viable due to low usage. I think the RYA would always recommend IRC for racers who are serious enough to do the administration to get certificates, but for those who are not the personal handicap system of NHC, with the success of Echo as a model, seemed to be the only viable way to go.
I should have thought that, as you are in Ireland, there would be considerable advantages to using Echo rather than NHC. Have you tried rescoring past events using NHC? I bet you’d find there is less difference than you might think. Mind you when two scoring/handicap systems do produce different results one is then left with the challenge of working out which one is “right”, something I’ve never really been sure how to do.
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
Thank you all, and especially Jon, for both your contributions and the great sense of humour that I sense behind them. I feel that “pain” as a regular sailor with a regular crew when I am beaten, having sailed a near perfect race, by either a “sleeper” who only comes out to play occasionally, or a fellow competitor whose boat either wins or loses big, depending on conditions and crew, I am consoled by winning the series as often as I should, based on my participation and sailing efforts.
As my note said we are a small club, the focus is more on winning races than series (and perhaps we need to change that by making series prizes better?), and we have a low level of handicapping capabilities, so I think that Jon is right, lets take out the subjective and operate NHC in 2015 with Sailwave and see how we go.
IRC and measured handicaps are not appropriate to our fleet, comprised a plethora of cruising boats that race for fun. On at least one occasion in the past there has been a slightly tongue in cheek comment that if we are handicapping spinnaker use, we should do the same for movable ballast, i.e. the cases of wine allegedy in the lockers of some competitors. On my J80, we are lucky to have a bottle of water, or time to drink it!
Thank you all for your guidance and help and may your sailing breeze be warm and always abaft the beam!
Good Sailing!
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On 18 February 2015 at 19:35, Jon Eskdale jon@sailwave.com [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
Echo and NHC are very similar in concept.
With Sailwave and the external template mode you can do either, although the documentation for Echo is lacking and at one event where I tried to score along side the official results I couldn’t get the same results as there was some subjective alterations to handicaps which in my opinion (if it is known that it is going on) causes bad feeling and distrust. NHC if you stick to its rules doesn’t allow these. Although if you wanted to implement such a system you could do it with Sailwave.
NHC does not require anywhere near the skill level of the scorer as would Echo and is therefore suited to a wider audience.
What is promoted is that the racing be dual scored with a fixed rating (where this comes from is a separate discussion) and a personal / performance handicap.
Neither Echo or NHC pretend to be an alternative to a fixed rating system but they do offer a way of showing and rewarding improving sailors and they should make the results closer. With these systems no one can always win (or always be last) unless they are constantly improving/ failing as their handicaps will adjust to prevent this.
So a fixed rating system is certainly the best in the ideal world but the conditions for the ideal are not practically obtainable. Even better is a handicap system that takes into effect the performance of the boat in different conditions.
Running a personal / progressive handicap system should stimulate interest and reward the improving sailors (sure you can sail badly in some races and your handicap will fall but then you have poor positions to put into a series so this will offset any gains you get by winning a later race). If it doesn’t then don’t bother. But as a scoring program Sailwave can do what ever is required.
Jon
Jon Eskdale
07976 709777
Skype “eskdale”
On 18 February 2015 at 10:18, yho@devboats.co.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
AIUI NHC was designed for entry level racing after a very good look at Echo when Portsmouth Yardstick for cruisers had ceased to be viable due to low usage. I think the RYA would always recommend IRC for racers who are serious enough to do the administration to get certificates, but for those who are not the personal handicap system of NHC, with the success of Echo as a model, seemed to be the only viable way to go.
I should have thought that, as you are in Ireland, there would be considerable advantages to using Echo rather than NHC. Have you tried rescoring past events using NHC? I bet you’d find there is less difference than you might think. Mind you when two scoring/handicap systems do produce different results one is then left with the challenge of working out which one is “right”, something I’ve never really been sure how to do.
At the risk of repeating what everyone already knows (deep in their hearts) there is no such thing as a ‘perfect’ or even a ‘reasonably accurate’ handicap. Boats just have different sweetspots. I sail a small trimaran which goes very well in F4 but less so in F2. Over the season 950 enables me to win a few races which is probably ‘fair’ but that is not to say that it is correct on those occasions when I win or wrong on the others. And yet it sort of works. I used to sail an old 22 footer on Strangford Loch. One of my opponents used to stow his outboard in the cabin; we didn’t. Was he sailing better than us or was he cheating? I chose to sail without a spinnaker because on many occasions the handicap allowance was worth more than the extra speed. So my opponent gets his bag in a tangle and eventually drops it in the water. I sit there goose winging without even bothering to put the pole in. I win. Who has sailed the better race? This sort of fleet can only be handicapped by eye and there need to be rules or at least conventions on how much you can optimise your boat. If a hot crew in a J80 turn up with a stripped out cabin they are not going to be able to race meaningfully against a Centaur with a case of wine in the bilge and the anchor on the bow. You just have to accept the club conventions as they are in that sort of situation, handicapping the skills of a crew may be necessary on occasion to get a meaningful race.
Rgds
George Morris
I’m only adding to Paul Craig and George Morris whose comments are very pertinant and helpful because we have been running NHC on 2 types of fleets for 3 years now. The first iteration was rubbish for new yachts joining halfway through. The current system is is poor if your club races contain Trophies for a single race, since NHC is not good for the new entry whose handicap is totally unknown, since the RYA base number can be as much as 20% out!! However for a fleet of regular racers sailing through a series it gives as good results as any other system, and has the interesting effect of having more individual race winners than a heavily modified PY type system, although our experienced handicappers were able to get much closer corrected results than NHC. The advantage of NHC is that there are no arguments as to any handicapper bias. We will be trying to apply NHC this year to the the series which has trophies for individual races using starting base numbers for new yachts derived from their performance in their first appearance to try and reduce the “unbelievable” race results although this is “off piste”.
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On Thursday, February 19, 2015 9:40 AM, “georgewhitleymorris@gmail.com [sailwave]” sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:
At the risk of repeating what everyone already knows (deep in their hearts) there is no such thing as a ‘perfect’ or even a ‘reasonably accurate’ handicap. Boats just have different sweetspots. I sail a small trimaran which goes very well in F4 but less so in F2. Over the season 950 enables me to win a few races which is probably ‘fair’ but that is not to say that it is correct on those occasions when I win or wrong on the others. And yet it sort of works. I used to sail an old 22 footer on Strangford Loch. One of my opponents used to stow his outboard in the cabin; we didn’t. Was he sailing better than us or was he cheating? I chose to sail without a spinnaker because on many occasions the handicap allowance was worth more than the extra speed. So my opponent gets his bag in a tangle and eventually drops it in the water. I sit there goose winging without even bothering to put the pole in. I win. Who has sailed the better race? This sort of fleet can only be handicapped by eye and there need to be rules or at least conventions on how much you can optimise your boat. If a hot crew in a J80 turn up with a stripped out cabin they are not going to be able to race meaningfully against a Centaur with a case of wine in the bilge and the anchor on the bow. You just have to accept the club conventions as they are in that sort of situation, handicapping the skills of a crew may be necessary on occasion to get a meaningful race.
Rgds
George Morris