Whiskey Flag for finishing a race

Imported from Yahoo
#1

Hi there

For the first time, we’ve used a whiskey flag to finish a race where the scoring isn’t just by position, but by elapsed time and number of laps. Any suggestions for how to enter this? Is there a code I’ve missed that would help me identify where the whiskey flag is used? Our race team simply noted their position rather than time they used whiskey flag. Many thanks for any suggestions! Janet

#2

Hi Janet,

Interesting question. You have not missed anything.

  Unfortunately the Race Team have missed recording a time for the

boat.

  My suggestion would be that the Race Team should seek redress for

the boat and a protest committee decide the appropriate action for
the boat.

  In my opinion it is very difficult to use Whiskey with handicap

racing .

  Was the race run so that a boat was required to pass through a

gate on each lap? If so were any times recorded, especially for
the boat concerned.

Look forward to hearing from you.

Kind regards,

Huw

···

On 07/07/2019 15:30,
[sail wave] wrote:

sailingsecretary@queenmary.org.uk

Hi there

            For the first time, we've used a whiskey flag to

finish a race where the scoring isn’t just by position,
but by elapsed time and number of laps. Any suggestions
for how to enter this? Is there a code I’ve missed that
would help me identify where the whiskey flag is used?
Our race team simply noted their position rather than
time they used whiskey flag. Many thanks for any
suggestions! Janet


Virus-free. www.avast.com

#3

Double click on competitor there is entry fields for elapsed time and Laos, ensure you have the ratings set up as applicable

Ian

#4

Hi Ian,

  I think you missed the point, sorry. The boat in question was

finished under Whiskey flag, i.e . somewhere else on the
course other than the finish line, and no time *** was
recorded*** by the Race Team of that flag movement. So
there is no time available for the boat, this is why my suggestion
is that the Race Team submit a request for redress for the boat
and a Protest Committee decide an appropriate solution.

Kind regards,

Huw

···

On 07/07/2019 16:07, [sailwave] wrote:

sailrace@sky.com

          Double click on competitor there is entry fields for

elapsed time and Laos, ensure you have the ratings set up
as applicable

          Ian


Virus-free. www.avast.com

#5

Apologies yes, see that now...... :+1:

#6

Yes, if the course is not a complete number of laps and you wish to average lap score you are into a whole world of pain.

For a while my club was in the habit of using a mobile start and a fixed finishing line with average laps. We partially got round the issue by timing through the finish line on the first lap and averaging complete laps, but it frequently threw up anomalies, especially if there were too few laps. Plus it needed custom calculations. We gave up the idea.

But back to the OP. Concur with all. Only solution is a redress hearing and dump it on the PC to do the best they can.

If there is a real straggler or two becalmed out on the track and it's a timed race I have finished them on track and added an hour to the finish time to ensure they score last and are excluded in PYS calculations, but you need to be very certain they could not possibly correct above anyone who has finished. Get agreement too.

Jim C

#7

Hi,

I have to agree with Huw and Jim that this is one for the Protest Committee to deal with. The only real course of action at this stage is for the Race Committee to request redress for the competitor as provided for by RRS 60.2(b). The PC then has quite a lot of latitude to determine what is fair.

As Huw says, Whiskey finishing does not work for Handicap racing as all boats need to have sailed the same course for the rating system to work. Even when using average lap times, it is still important that the course for every lap is the same for every competitor and if you shorten it for one competitor, that is no longer true.

One solution going forward is to write an SI which says that a boat may be finished on the course but their time and lap count will be taken from the end of their previous lap. You then have to take times at the end of every lap but that is good practice anyway.

Ian B

···

On 8 Jul 2019, at 08:26, yho@devboats.co.uk [sailwave] sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Yes, if the course is not a complete number of laps and you wish to average lap score you are into a whole world of pain.

For a while my club was in the habit of using a mobile start and a fixed finishing line with average laps. We partially got round the issue by timing through the finish line on the first lap and averaging complete laps, but it frequently threw up anomalies, especially if there were too few laps. Plus it needed custom calculations. We gave up the idea.

But back to the OP. Concur with all. Only solution is a redress hearing and dump it on the PC to do the best they can.

If there is a real straggler or two becalmed out on the track and it’s a timed race I have finished them on track and added an hour to the finish time to ensure they score last and are excluded in PYS calculations, but you need to be very certain they could not possibly correct above anyone who has finished. Get agreement too.

Jim C

#8

Not sure about this Whiskey flag business.

Ran across something similar (I think) at a 29er NAs this weekend where the SIs said boats had to finish within 10 minutes of the first boat, and those not finished would be scored on course and given their place. So the RC was charged with figuring out who was ahead of whom as the ten minute window closed.

Seems like this should have its own scoring code.

The idea is not to discourage competitors by gIving them a DNF, I guess.

jrc

John R Culter - Mobile
Vancouver Canada
+1 (604) 908-3119

···

On Mon., Jul. 8, 2019, 12:26 a.m. yho@devboats.co.uk [sailwave], sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Yes, if the course is not a complete number of laps and you wish to average lap score you are into a whole world of pain.

For a while my club was in the habit of using a mobile start and a fixed finishing line with average laps. We partially got round the issue by timing through the finish line on the first lap and averaging complete laps, but it frequently threw up anomalies, especially if there were too few laps. Plus it needed custom calculations. We gave up the idea.

But back to the OP. Concur with all. Only solution is a redress hearing and dump it on the PC to do the best they can.

If there is a real straggler or two becalmed out on the track and it’s a timed race I have finished them on track and added an hour to the finish time to ensure they score last and are excluded in PYS calculations, but you need to be very certain they could not possibly correct above anyone who has finished. Get agreement too.

Jim C

Posted by: yho@devboats.co.uk

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- On-Line Sailwave help…http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Townsend's Sailwave User Guide is available from http://www.sailwave.com/download/sailwave/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/](http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/)

<*> Your email settings:

Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

[http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/join](http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/join)

(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:

sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com

sailwave-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:

[https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/](https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/)
#9

If this is to give boats a score who would have scored DNF, this is what I use often:-

Any boat still racing when her time limit expires will be scored points equal to the number of boats finishing within the time limit plus 30% of the number of starters rounded to the nearest whole number, but no more points than the number of starters. Such boats will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE). This changes RRS 35, A4.2 and A5.

It works quite well. Boats have to be still racing at the expiry of the time limit, it does not apply to those who retire early.

Denis

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 9 July 2019 3:15 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Whiskey Flag for finishing a race

Not sure about this Whiskey flag business.

Ran across something similar (I think) at a 29er NAs this weekend where the SIs said boats had to finish within 10 minutes of the first boat, and those not finished would be scored on course and given their place. So the RC was charged with figuring out who was ahead of whom as the ten minute window closed.

Seems like this should have its own scoring code.

The idea is not to discourage competitors by gIving them a DNF, I guess.

jrc

John R Culter - Mobile
Vancouver Canada
+1 (604) 908-3119

On Mon., Jul. 8, 2019, 12:26 a.m. yho@devboats.co.uk [sailwave], sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Yes, if the course is not a complete number of laps and you wish to average lap score you are into a whole world of pain.

For a while my club was in the habit of using a mobile start and a fixed finishing line with average laps. We partially got round the issue by timing through the finish line on the first lap and averaging complete laps, but it frequently threw up anomalies, especially if there were too few laps. Plus it needed custom calculations. We gave up the idea.

But back to the OP. Concur with all. Only solution is a redress hearing and dump it on the PC to do the best they can.

If there is a real straggler or two becalmed out on the track and it’s a timed race I have finished them on track and added an hour to the finish time to ensure they score last and are excluded in PYS calculations, but you need to be very certain they could not possibly correct above anyone who has finished. Get agreement too.

Jim C

Posted by: yho@devboats.co.uk

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- On-Line Sailwave help…http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Townsend's Sailwave User Guide is available from http://www.sailwave.com/download/sailwave/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com
sailwave-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

#10

Hi everyone

Thanks for your input – lots to think about – what we have done is sought to finish the affected boat with an appropriate estimated time and number of laps, which has solved the immediate problem
for scoring this particular race and boat.

Best regards

Janet

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 09 July 2019 06:34
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Whiskey Flag for finishing a race

If this is to give boats a score who would have scored DNF, this is what I use often:-

  • Any boat still racing when her time limit expires will be scored points equal to the number of boats finishing within the time limit plus 30% of the number of starters rounded
    to the nearest whole number, but no more points than the number of starters. Such boats will be scored Time Limit Expired (TLE). This changes RRS 35, A4.2 and A5.*

It works quite well. Boats have to be still racing at the expiry of the time limit, it does not apply to those who retire early.

Denis

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, 9 July 2019 3:15 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Whiskey Flag for finishing a race

Not sure about this Whiskey flag business.

Ran across something similar (I think) at a 29er NAs this weekend where the SIs said boats had to finish within 10 minutes of the first boat, and those not finished would be scored
on course and given their place. So the RC was charged with figuring out who was ahead of whom as the ten minute window closed.

Seems like this should have its own scoring code.

The idea is not to discourage competitors by gIving them a DNF, I guess.

jrc

John R Culter - Mobile
Vancouver Canada
+1 (604) 908-3119

On Mon., Jul. 8, 2019, 12:26 a.m.
yho@devboats.co.uk [sailwave], sailwave@yahoogroups.com wrote:

Yes, if the course is not a complete number of laps and you wish to average lap score you are into a whole world of pain.

For a while my club was in the habit of using a mobile start and a fixed finishing line with average laps. We partially got round the issue by timing through the finish line on the first lap and averaging complete laps, but it frequently threw up anomalies,
especially if there were too few laps. Plus it needed custom calculations. We gave up the idea.

But back to the OP. Concur with all. Only solution is a redress hearing and dump it on the PC to do the best they can.

If there is a real straggler or two becalmed out on the track and it’s a timed race I have finished them on track and added an hour to the finish time to ensure they score last and are excluded in PYS calculations, but you need to be very certain they could
not possibly correct above anyone who has finished. Get agreement too.

Jim C

Posted by: yho@devboats…co.uk

-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!-
http://www.sailing.org/ -!-
http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- On-Line Sailwave help…http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Townsend's Sailwave User Guide is available from

http://www.sailwave.com/download/sailwave/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to
sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

Yahoo Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com

sailwave-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo Groups is subject to:
https://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/