Hello all,
Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave to
calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed boats?
An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a solo half
way through the series?
Thanks
Mo
KGSC and FGSC
I would also be interested in a more direct way to do it, but I accomplished this by frst creating and scoring two entries in the SW series, then exported to excel to combine the results, then exported back to sailwave for publishing.
regards,
Malcolm Osborne
Sedgefield, South Africa
----- Original Message -----
From:
trainermo
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 12:33 AM
Subject: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Hello all,
Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave to
calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed boats?An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a solo half
way through the series?Thanks
Mo
KGSC and FGSC
You have not said whether the SIs allow helms to change boats during a series.
If a helm is allowed to change boats in a GH, then I think the only way is to put helm names in the boat column & boat in another column
This practice has been debated at great length in the past & I think the majority of SUG users have deemed it unfair as some helms could swap boats to match the weather conditions.
If you look at Appendix A however, it is very clear that results are awarded to the boat, not the helm!!
I think this is a legacy from Yacht racing
In dinghy racing, the result is always given to the helm.
I have tried to get advice from rules ‘experts’ to determine if we we should be including an SI for dinghy racing which changes AppA but I have never been able to get an answer which I can understand.
If anyone out there can supply a simple solution to my problem, I would be extremely grateful :-/
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of trainermo
Sent:
15 January 2009 22:33
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Hello all,
Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave to
calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed boats?
An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a solo half
way through the series?
Thanks
Mo
KGSC and FGSC
You can change the handicap used on a race by race basis so corrected
times are worked out for the boat being sailed.
The results only show for 1 boat so the only real indication that this
has happened is the handicap used.
But that works well enough for us.
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of trainermo
Sent: 15 January 2009 22:33
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats
during a handicap seriesHello all,
Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave
to calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed boats?An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a
solo half way through the series?Thanks
Mo
KGSC and FGSC------------------------------------
-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!-
http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
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'files' section http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/ ~
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The usual method is using an alias
You enter the new boat, then mark as an alias of an existing competitor.
Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "trainermo" <mo.allen@lucid-vision.co.uk>
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:33 PM
Subject: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Hello all,
Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave to
calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed boats?An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a solo half
way through the series?Thanks
Mo
KGSC and FGSC------------------------------------
-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/ ~ On-Line Sailwave help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Thompson's Sailwave User Manual is available from http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
... But doesn't that go against RRS? The rules state that 'the boat'
is the competitor so if a helm changes boats it should be a new entry
in a series.
My understanding is that the RYA discourage allowing changes of boats
during a series as potentially a helm could pick and choose a boat
that suits the weather conditions on a particular day thus giving him
an unfair advantage over others.
The exception to this would be a change of rigs where the class
allows it such as Laser, RS300 etc. Even then, although rig changes
are often permitted in a series, this is not allowed in a shorter
regatta such as an open meeting where the chosen rig must be used for
all the races.
You can change the handicap used on a race by race basis so
corrected
times are worked out for the boat being sailed.
The results only show for 1 boat so the only real indication that
this
has happened is the handicap used.
But that works well enough for us.> From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of trainermo
> Sent: 15 January 2009 22:33
> To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats
> during a handicap series
>
> Hello all,
>
> Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave
> to calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed
boats?
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Harvey, John" <jpharvey@...> wrote:
> -----Original Message-----
>
> An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a
> solo half way through the series?
>
> Thanks
>
> Mo
> KGSC and FGSC
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> -!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!-
> http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
> Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the
> 'files' section http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/ ~
> On-Line Sailwave help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark
> Thompson's Sailwave User Manual is available from
> http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~
> Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to
> sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG
> please send blank email to
> sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
Potentially yes. But our SI's have something to cover it and to date no
one has abused the system.
We would prefer to encourage people to sail and if they don't have a
crew sail a single handed boat and be able to compete in the series etc.
rather than limiting the numbers taking part.
This is club racing after all.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan Jones
Sent: 16 January 2009 09:22
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: A single helm using different boats
during a handicap series... But doesn't that go against RRS? The rules state that 'the boat'
is the competitor so if a helm changes boats it should be a
new entry in a series.My understanding is that the RYA discourage allowing changes
of boats during a series as potentially a helm could pick and
choose a boat that suits the weather conditions on a
particular day thus giving him an unfair advantage over others.The exception to this would be a change of rigs where the
class allows it such as Laser, RS300 etc. Even then, although
rig changes are often permitted in a series, this is not
allowed in a shorter regatta such as an open meeting where
the chosen rig must be used for all the races.--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Harvey, John" <jpharvey@...> wrote:
>
> You can change the handicap used on a race by race basis so
corrected
> times are worked out for the boat being sailed.
> The results only show for 1 boat so the only real indication that
this
> has happened is the handicap used.
> But that works well enough for us.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of trainermo
> > Sent: 15 January 2009 22:33
> > To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a
> > handicap series
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave to
> > calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed
boats?
> >
> > An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a solo
> > half way through the series?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Mo
> > KGSC and FGSC
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > -!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/
> > -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- Latest versions of
sailwave can be
> > downloaded from the 'files' section
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/ ~ On-Line Sailwave
> > help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Thompson's
Sailwave User
> > Manual is available from
> > http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~
Convert to
> > daily digest of emails send blank email to
> > sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the
SUG please
> > send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo!
> > Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>------------------------------------
-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!-
http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the
'files' section http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/ ~
On-Line Sailwave help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark
Thompson's Sailwave User Manual is available from
http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~
Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG
please send blank email to
sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
The question was just "how to do it ?"...
It's useful not only for club racing, also for international level.
For series lasting longer than a regatta, everything can happen
The boat is destroyed and replaced
The boat is stolen and replaced
The boat is sold and replaced (for cruisers on yardstick, the "one meter more" syndrom)
The distance to the regatta, expenses and available time don't allow to transport the boat. ISAF accepts the use of charter boats
What cannot be accepted indeed is that a competitor uses 2 or 3 different boats, each optimised for specific weather conditions...
Just a question of fait racing.
To be consistency with RRS, better add to the NoR a sentence stating that in all articles related to scoring in RRS, one should read "competitor" instead of "boat"
Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Harvey, John" <jpharvey@ptc.com>
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 10:26 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Potentially yes. But our SI's have something to cover it and to date no
one has abused the system.
We would prefer to encourage people to sail and if they don't have a
crew sail a single handed boat and be able to compete in the series etc.
rather than limiting the numbers taking part.This is club racing after all.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Alan Jones
Sent: 16 January 2009 09:22
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: A single helm using different boats
during a handicap series... But doesn't that go against RRS? The rules state that 'the boat'
is the competitor so if a helm changes boats it should be a
new entry in a series.My understanding is that the RYA discourage allowing changes
of boats during a series as potentially a helm could pick and
choose a boat that suits the weather conditions on a
particular day thus giving him an unfair advantage over others.The exception to this would be a change of rigs where the
class allows it such as Laser, RS300 etc. Even then, although
rig changes are often permitted in a series, this is not
allowed in a shorter regatta such as an open meeting where
the chosen rig must be used for all the races.--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Harvey, John" <jpharvey@...> wrote:
>
> You can change the handicap used on a race by race basis so
corrected
> times are worked out for the boat being sailed.
> The results only show for 1 boat so the only real indication that
this
> has happened is the handicap used.
> But that works well enough for us.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> > [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of trainermo
> > Sent: 15 January 2009 22:33
> > To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a
> > handicap series
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave to
> > calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed
boats?
> >
> > An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a solo
> > half way through the series?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Mo
> > KGSC and FGSC
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > -!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/
> > -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- Latest versions of
sailwave can be
> > downloaded from the 'files' section
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/ ~ On-Line Sailwave
> > help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Thompson's
Sailwave User
> > Manual is available from
> > http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~
Convert to
> > daily digest of emails send blank email to
> > sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the
SUG please
> > send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo!
> > Groups Links
> >
>------------------------------------
-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!-
http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!-
Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the
'files' section http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/ ~
On-Line Sailwave help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark
Thompson's Sailwave User Manual is available from
http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~
Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to
sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG
please send blank email to
sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links------------------------------------
-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the 'files' section http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/ ~ On-Line Sailwave help...http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Thompson's Sailwave User Manual is available from http://www.abyc.org/upload/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide.pdf ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links
Just to correct a point - the racing rules of sailing have always, as far back as I can trace, awarded points and prizes to the boat/yacht.
The practice of substituting the helm’s name for the dinghy is frequent but not sanctioned by the rules, and leads to some confusion. In less democratic times the owner took precedence, but it was still the yacht that entered, competed and was awarded points.
It should be pointed out that the rules do not mention the crew member who has the particular, and not necessarily glorious, job of waggling the tiller and shouting at his crew mates (a somewhat sterile occupation in a single-handed boat), the only obligation being that there should be a designated person in charge.
Most SIs allow for a change of equipment to replace broken or lost gear. However this is subject to the approval of the race committee. I would suggest that clubs adopt this, allowing a change of boat in reasonable circumstances but not allowing to change to another Laser rig, or say sail a 42O in a blow and a Thames Rater in light winds (to take an extreme example) according to prevailing wind conditions.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From:
Ralph Tingle
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
You have not said whether the SIs allow helms to change boats during a series.
If a helm is allowed to change boats in a GH, then I think the only way is to put helm names in the boat column & boat in another column
This practice has been debated at great length in the past & I think the majority of SUG users have deemed it unfair as some helms could swap boats to match the weather conditions.
If you look at Appendix A however, it is very clear that results are awarded to the boat, not the helm!!
I think this is a legacy from Yacht racing
In dinghy racing, the result is always given to the helm.
I have tried to get advice from rules ‘experts’ to determine if we we should be including an SI for dinghy racing which changes AppA but I have never been able to get an answer which I can understand.
If anyone out there can supply a simple solution to my problem, I would be extremely grateful :-/
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] ** On Behalf Of** trainermo
Sent: 15 January 2009 22:33
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Hello all,
Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave to
calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed boats?An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a solo half
way through the series?Thanks
Mo
KGSC and FGSC
has notified the sender that this message has been received.
Gordon,
I agree, but for series lasting longer than a regatta, there can also be abuse.
A boat enters the series under the name of the owner, and sails two races with results according to his very low level. Then he invites his sailmaker to helm for some regattas, and has the opportunity to invite a gold medallist.
And he wins the series.
On the other side, some competitors don’t own a boat and use to sail the club challenge on a boat of the sailing school. Sadly there are more helmsmen than Laser Radialme of them have to use a Splaxsh instead of a LR. Even helmsman A used LR #1 on the first race, helmsman B used the same LR #1 in race 2, and both are sailing in race 3, so the unlucky helmsman B using LR #2 should be a second entry while very lucky helmsman A could add points od B in race 2 to his own legitimate score. Pure nonsense.
So for this specific type of series, change the rule through the NoR (if any…)
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From:
Gordon Davies
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Just to correct a point - the racing rules of sailing have always, as far back as I can trace, awarded points and prizes to the boat/yacht.
The practice of substituting the helm’s name for the dinghy is frequent but not sanctioned by the rules, and leads to some confusion. In less democratic times the owner took precedence, but it was still the yacht that entered, competed and was awarded points.
It should be pointed out that the rules do not mention the crew member who has the particular, and not necessarily glorious, job of waggling the tiller and shouting at his crew mates (a somewhat sterile occupation in a single-handed boat), the only obligation being that there should be a designated person in charge.
Most SIs allow for a change of equipment to replace broken or lost gear. However this is subject to the approval of the race committee. I would suggest that clubs adopt this, allowing a change of boat in reasonable circumstances but not allowing to change to another Laser rig, or say sail a 42O in a blow and a Thames Rater in light winds (to take an extreme example) according to prevailing wind conditions.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From:
Ralph Tingle
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
You have not said whether the SIs allow helms to change boats during a series.
If a helm is allowed to change boats in a GH, then I think the only way is to put helm names in the boat column & boat in another column
This practice has been debated at great length in the past & I think the majority of SUG users have deemed it unfair as some helms could swap boats to match the weather conditions.
If you look at Appendix A however, it is very clear that results are awarded to the boat, not the helm!!
I think this is a legacy from Yacht racing
In dinghy racing, the result is always given to the helm.
I have tried to get advice from rules 'experts' to determine if we we should be including an SI for dinghy racing which changes AppA but I have never been able to get an answer which I can understand.
If anyone out there can supply a simple solution to my problem, I would be extremely grateful :-/
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] ** On Behalf Of** trainermo
Sent: 15 January 2009 22:33
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Hello all,
Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave to calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed boats? An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a solo halfway through the series?
Thanks
Mo
KGSC and FGSC
I agree.
The NOR and SIs should allow for, and establish the conditions for, any changes to crew or equipment. This should not be unregulated.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From:
Philippe DE TROY
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Gordon,
I agree, but for series lasting longer than a regatta, there can also be abuse.
A boat enters the series under the name of the owner, and sails two races with results according to his very low level. Then he invites his sailmaker to helm for some regattas, and has the opportunity to invite a gold medallist.
And he wins the series.
On the other side, some competitors don’t own a boat and use to sail the club challenge on a boat of the sailing school. Sadly there are more helmsmen than Laser Radialme of them have to use a Splaxsh instead of a LR. Even helmsman A used LR #1 on the first race, helmsman B used the same LR #1 in race 2, and both are sailing in race 3, so the unlucky helmsman B using LR #2 should be a second entry while very lucky helmsman A could add points od B in race 2 to his own legitimate score. Pure nonsense.
So for this specific type of series, change the rule through the NoR (if any…)
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Davies
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Just to correct a point - the racing rules of sailing have always, as far back as I can trace, awarded points and prizes to the boat/yacht.
The practice of substituting the helm's name for the dinghy is frequent but not sanctioned by the rules, and leads to some confusion. In less democratic times the owner took precedence, but it was still the yacht that entered, competed and was awarded points.
It should be pointed out that the rules do not mention the crew member who has the particular, and not necessarily glorious, job of waggling the tiller and shouting at his crew mates (a somewhat sterile occupation in a single-handed boat), the only obligation being that there should be a designated person in charge.
Most SIs allow for a change of equipment to replace broken or lost gear. However this is subject to the approval of the race committee. I would suggest that clubs adopt this, allowing a change of boat in reasonable circumstances but not allowing to change to another Laser rig, or say sail a 42O in a blow and a Thames Rater in light winds (to take an extreme example) according to prevailing wind conditions.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Tingle
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
You have not said whether the SIs allow helms to change boats during a series.
If a helm is allowed to change boats in a GH, then I think the only way is to put helm names in the boat column & boat in another column
This practice has been debated at great length in the past & I think the majority of SUG users have deemed it unfair as some helms could swap boats to match the weather conditions.
If you look at Appendix A however, it is very clear that results are awarded to the boat, not the helm!!
I think this is a legacy from Yacht racing
In dinghy racing, the result is always given to the helm.
I have tried to get advice from rules 'experts' to determine if we we should be including an SI for dinghy racing which changes AppA but I have never been able to get an answer which I can understand.
If anyone out there can supply a simple solution to my problem, I would be extremely grateful :-/
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] ** On Behalf Of** trainermo
Sent: 15 January 2009 22:33
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Hello all,
Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave to calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed boats? An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a solo half way through the series?Thanks
Mo
KGSC and FGSC
has notified the sender that this message has been received.
Thanks for your advice, Gordon & Philippe
The problem is that we would all like to think that club racing is a little more ‘relaxed’ than National Championships & above.
If no-one abused this approach we would all be happy.
Unfortunately, there is always one …
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Davies
Sent: 16 January 2009 11:30
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
I agree.
The NOR and SIs should allow for, and establish the conditions for, any changes to crew or equipment. This should not be unregulated.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Philippe DE TROY
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Gordon,
I agree, but for series lasting longer than a regatta, there can also be abuse.
A boat enters the series under the name of the owner, and sails two races with results according to his very low level. Then he invites his sailmaker to helm for some regattas, and has the opportunity to invite a gold medallist.
And he wins the series.
On the other side, some competitors don’t own a boat and use to sail the club challenge on a boat of the sailing school. Sadly there are more helmsmen than Laser Radialme of them have to use a Splaxsh instead of a LR. Even helmsman A used LR #1 on the first race, helmsman B used the same LR #1 in race 2, and both are sailing in race 3, so the unlucky helmsman B using LR #2 should be a second entry while very lucky helmsman A could add points od B in race 2 to his own legitimate score. Pure nonsense.
So for this specific type of series, change the rule through the NoR (if any…)
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Davies
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Just to correct a point - the racing rules of sailing have always, as far back as I can trace, awarded points and prizes to the boat/yacht.
The practice of substituting the helm's name for the dinghy is frequent but not sanctioned by the rules, and leads to some confusion. In less democratic times the owner took precedence, but it was still the yacht that entered, competed and was awarded points.
It should be pointed out that the rules do not mention the crew member who has the particular, and not necessarily glorious, job of waggling the tiller and shouting at his crew mates (a somewhat sterile occupation in a single-handed boat), the only obligation being that there should be a designated person in charge.
Most SIs allow for a change of equipment to replace broken or lost gear. However this is subject to the approval of the race committee. I would suggest that clubs adopt this, allowing a change of boat in reasonable circumstances but not allowing to change to another Laser rig, or say sail a 42O in a blow and a Thames Rater in light winds (to take an extreme example) according to prevailing wind conditions.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Tingle
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
You have not said whether the SIs allow helms to change boats during a series.
If a helm is allowed to change boats in a GH, then I think the only way is to put helm names in the boat column & boat in another column
This practice has been debated at great length in the past & I think the majority of SUG users have deemed it unfair as some helms could swap boats to match the weather conditions.
If you look at Appendix A however, it is very clear that results are awarded to the boat, not the helm!!
I think this is a legacy from Yacht racing
In dinghy racing, the result is always given to the helm.
I have tried to get advice from rules 'experts' to determine if we we should be including an SI for dinghy racing which changes AppA but I have never been able to get an answer which I can understand.
If anyone out there can supply a simple solution to my problem, I would be extremely grateful :-/
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] ** On Behalf Of** trainermo
Sent: 15 January 2009 22:33
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Hello all,
Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave to calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed boats? An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a solo half way through the series?Thanks
Mo
KGSC and FGSC
has notified the sender that this message has been received.
Thanks everybody for your answers. Its great to know there is a way
to do this in Sailwave.
We have always allowed people to particpate in our club series in
different boats for many of the reasons already stated. In my own
case, I always try to take my kids out where possible, but on the
many Sundays where they will not get out of their 'pit', I end up in
a single hander.
I understand why the rules are as they are, but really appreciate my
clubs pragmatic approcah as it means there is half a chance of me at
least qualifying for a series.
Interestingly, my club has avoided using sailwave so far because they
didn't realise Sailwave was flexible enough to accomodate us.
Thanks again
Mo
Thanks for your advice, Gordon & Philippe
The problem is that we would all like to think that club racing is
a little
more 'relaxed' than National Championships & above.
If no-one abused this approach we would all be happy.
Unfortunately, there is always one .............Regards
Ralph_____
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
Of Gordon Davies
Sent: 16 January 2009 11:30
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a
handicap seriesI agree.
The NOR and SIs should allow for, and establish the conditions for,
any
changes to crew or equipment. This should not be unregulated.
Gordon
From: Philippe DE <mailto:philippe@…> TROY
To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com> s.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a
handicap seriesGordon,
I agree, but for series lasting longer than a regatta, there can
also be
abuse.
A boat enters the series under the name of the owner, and sails two
races
with results according to his very low level. Then he invites his
sailmaker
to helm for some regattas, and has the opportunity to invite a gold
medallist.
And he wins the series.On the other side, some competitors don't own a boat and use to
sail the
club challenge on a boat of the sailing school. Sadly there are
more
helmsmen than Laser Radialme of them have to use a Splaxsh instead
of a LR.
Even helmsman A used LR #1 on the first race, helmsman B used the
same LR #1
in race 2, and both are sailing in race 3, so the unlucky helmsman
B using
LR #2 should be a second entry while very lucky helmsman A could
add points
od B in race 2 to his own legitimate score. Pure nonsense.
So for this specific type of series, change the rule through the
NoR (if
any...)
Phil
From: Gordon <mailto:gordondavies@…> Davies
To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com> s.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a
handicap seriesJust to correct a point - the racing rules of sailing have always,
as far
back as I can trace, awarded points and prizes to the boat/yacht.
The practice of substituting the helm's name for the dinghy is
frequent but
not sanctioned by the rules, and leads to some confusion. In less
democratic times the owner took precedence, but it was still the
yacht that
entered, competed and was awarded points.
It should be pointed out that the rules do not mention the crew
member who
has the particular, and not necessarily glorious, job of waggling
the tiller
and shouting at his crew mates (a somewhat sterile occupation in a
single-handed boat), the only obligation being that there should be
a
designated person in charge.
Most SIs allow for a change of equipment to replace broken or lost
gear.
However this is subject to the approval of the race committee. I
would
suggest that clubs adopt this, allowing a change of boat in
reasonable
circumstances but not allowing to change to another Laser rig, or
say sail a
42O in a blow and a Thames Rater in light winds (to take an extreme
example)
according to prevailing wind conditions.
Gordon
From: Ralph Tingle <mailto:rat@…>
To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com> s.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a
handicap seriesYou have not said whether the SIs allow helms to change boats
during a
series.
If a helm is allowed to change boats in a GH, then I think the only
way is
to put helm names in the boat column & boat in another column
This practice has been debated at great length in the past & I
think the
majority of SUG users have deemed it unfair as some helms could
swap boats
to match the weather conditions.
If you look at Appendix A however, it is very clear that results
are awarded
to the boat, not the helm!!
I think this is a legacy from Yacht racingIn dinghy racing, the result is always given to the helm.
I have tried to get advice from rules 'experts' to determine if we
we should
be including an SI for dinghy racing which changes AppA but I have
never
been able to get an answer which I can understand.
If anyone out there can supply a simple solution to my problem, I
would be
extremely grateful :-/
Regards
Ralph_____
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf
Of trainermo
Sent: 15 January 2009 22:33
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a
handicap
series
Hello all,
Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave to
calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed boats?An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a solo
half
way through the series?
Thanks
Mo
KGSC and FGSC<http://msgtag.com/?source=ffooter> has notified the sender that
this
message has been received.
<http://msgtag.com/?source=ffooter> has notified the sender that
this
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@...> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
message has been received.
which is why you should allow changes only subject to race committee approval. the granting of approval can be “relaxed”, but if someone is abusing the system then something can be done about it.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From:
Ralph Tingle
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 1:07 PM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Thanks for your advice, Gordon & Philippe
The problem is that we would all like to think that club racing is a little more ‘relaxed’ than National Championships & above.
If no-one abused this approach we would all be happy.
Unfortunately, there is always one …
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Gordon Davies
Sent: 16 January 2009 11:30
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
I agree.
The NOR and SIs should allow for, and establish the conditions for, any changes to crew or equipment. This should not be unregulated.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Philippe DE TROY
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Gordon,
I agree, but for series lasting longer than a regatta, there can also be abuse.
A boat enters the series under the name of the owner, and sails two races with results according to his very low level. Then he invites his sailmaker to helm for some regattas, and has the opportunity to invite a gold medallist.
And he wins the series.
On the other side, some competitors don't own a boat and use to sail the club challenge on a boat of the sailing school. Sadly there are more helmsmen than Laser Radialme of them have to use a Splaxsh instead of a LR. Even helmsman A used LR #1 on the first race, helmsman B used the same LR #1 in race 2, and both are sailing in race 3, so the unlucky helmsman B using LR #2 should be a second entry while very lucky helmsman A could add points od B in race 2 to his own legitimate score. Pure nonsense.
So for this specific type of series, change the rule through the NoR (if any...)
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: Gordon Davies
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 11:41 AM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Just to correct a point - the racing rules of sailing have always, as far back as I can trace, awarded points and prizes to the boat/yacht.
The practice of substituting the helm's name for the dinghy is frequent but not sanctioned by the rules, and leads to some confusion. In less democratic times the owner took precedence, but it was still the yacht that entered, competed and was awarded points.
It should be pointed out that the rules do not mention the crew member who has the particular, and not necessarily glorious, job of waggling the tiller and shouting at his crew mates (a somewhat sterile occupation in a single-handed boat), the only obligation being that there should be a designated person in charge.
Most SIs allow for a change of equipment to replace broken or lost gear. However this is subject to the approval of the race committee. I would suggest that clubs adopt this, allowing a change of boat in reasonable circumstances but not allowing to change to another Laser rig, or say sail a 42O in a blow and a Thames Rater in light winds (to take an extreme example) according to prevailing wind conditions.
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From: Ralph Tingle
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:53 AM
Subject: RE: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
You have not said whether the SIs allow helms to change boats during a series.
If a helm is allowed to change boats in a GH, then I think the only way is to put helm names in the boat column & boat in another column
This practice has been debated at great length in the past & I think the majority of SUG users have deemed it unfair as some helms could swap boats to match the weather conditions.
If you look at Appendix A however, it is very clear that results are awarded to the boat, not the helm!!
I think this is a legacy from Yacht racing
In dinghy racing, the result is always given to the helm.
I have tried to get advice from rules 'experts' to determine if we we should be including an SI for dinghy racing which changes AppA but I have never been able to get an answer which I can understand.
If anyone out there can supply a simple solution to my problem, I would be extremely grateful :-/
Regards
Ralph
From: sailwave@yahoogroup s.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] ** On Behalf Of** trainermo
Sent: 15 January 2009 22:33
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Hello all,
Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave to calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed boats? An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a solo half way through the series?Thanks
Mo
KGSC and FGSC
has notified the sender that this message has been received.
For our season series club races our SI states:
19.1 Trophy competition is between skippers. Therefore, a skipper may shift to
another boat within his fleet and continue the series of scores started with the first
boat.
The skipper must declare a fleet. (handicap, laser, etc) Skippers do switch boats based on crew and weather but I detect no real advantage and it does get boats on the water.
For entry we set the sail number wizard to “Helm” and use the skippers name. For those that change boats we just blank the “Class” and “SailNo” fields. We must, of course, figure out the finish position.
…Gil
It would be interesting to see how this instruction stands up to protest. It effectively changes all of Appendix A (for boat read skipper throughout), rule 75, a rule that, according to 86.1a, cannot be changed. Skipper is not a word that is defined in the racing rules. What would happen if the person in charge, as defined by rule 46, is not the tiller waggler? Who would the points follow as competitors change boats?
Does this mean that a skipper can switch from a Laser Standard to a Laser Radial, or even 4.7 according to conditions?
Gordon
----- Original Message -----
From:
Gil Vick
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
For our season series club races our SI states:
19.1 Trophy competition is between skippers. Therefore, a skipper may shift to
another boat within his fleet and continue the series of scores started with the first
boat.
The skipper must declare a fleet. (handicap, laser, etc) Skippers do switch boats based on crew and weather but I detect no real advantage and it does get boats on the water.
For entry we set the sail number wizard to “Helm” and use the skippers name. For those that change boats we just blank the “Class” and “SailNo” fields. We must, of course, figure out the finish position.
…Gil
has notified the sender that this message has been received.
Gil,
OK for Laser as they are one-design.
For handicap, you may shift within the fleet and change handicap.
Then you should insert the new pair boat/helmsman as a new competitor and tick this new entry as an alias of the original one.
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From:
Gil Vick
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 5:21 PM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
19.1 Trophy competition is between skippers. Therefore, a skipper may shift to
another boat within his fleet and continue the series of scores started with the first
boat.
The skipper must declare a fleet. (handicap, laser, etc) Skippers do switch boats based on crew and weather but I detect no real advantage and it does get boats on the water.
For entry we set the sail number wizard to “Helm” and use the skippers name. For those that change boats we just blank the “Class” and “SailNo” fields. We must, of course, figure out the finish position.
…Gil
With the example of a Laser quoted below, it is the same boat (with
the same sail No.) being used, merely the rigs being changed so it
doesn't contravene RRS. and as I mentioned earlier this is often
allowed for a longer series with the PY adjusted according to the rig
used for the race, but in a short regatta like an open meeting the
rig chosen must be used for all the races.
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Gordon Davies" <gordondavies@...>
wrote:
It would be interesting to see how this instruction stands up to
protest. It effectively changes all of Appendix A (for boat read
skipper throughout), rule 75, a rule that, according to 86.1a, cannot
be changed. Skipper is not a word that is defined in the racing
rules. What would happen if the person in charge, as defined by rule
46, is not the tiller waggler? Who would the points follow as
competitors change boats?
Does this mean that a skipper can switch from a Laser Standard to a
Laser Radial, or even 4.7 according to conditions?
Gordon
From: Gil Vick
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats
during a handicap series
For our season series club races our SI states:
19.1 Trophy competition is between skippers. Therefore, a skipper
may shift to
another boat within his fleet and continue the series of scores
started with the first
boat.
The skipper must declare a fleet. (handicap, laser, etc)
Skippers do switch boats based on crew and weather but I detect no
real advantage and it does get boats on the water.
For entry we set the sail number wizard to "Helm" and use the
skippers name. For those that change boats we just blank the "Class"
and "SailNo" fields. We must, of course, figure out the finish
position.
----- Original Message -----
...Gil
It would be interesting to see how this instruction stands up to
protest. It effectively changes all of Appendix A (for boat read
skipper throughout), rule 75, a rule that, according to 86.1a,
cannot be changed.
Fascinating stuff: presumably the RRS would also preclude a sailor
changing to a different single-handed boat of the same class....
Does this mean that a skipper can switch from a Laser Standard to a
Laser Radial, or even 4.7 according to conditions?
At Lancing SC we allow changing to a smaller rig in the Laser fleet,
but one keeps the bigger rig's race handicap number. We have found
that very few people actually use this in practice.
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Gordon Davies" <gordondavies@...> wrote:
Doesn't give more advantage than tucking a reef on a cruiser...
Phil
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Croker" <mdcroker@which.net>
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 6:08 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Gordon Davies" <gordondavies@...> wrote:
It would be interesting to see how this instruction stands up to
protest. It effectively changes all of Appendix A (for boat read
skipper throughout), rule 75, a rule that, according to 86.1a,
cannot be changed.Fascinating stuff: presumably the RRS would also preclude a sailor
changing to a different single-handed boat of the same class....Does this mean that a skipper can switch from a Laser Standard to a
Laser Radial, or even 4.7 according to conditions?At Lancing SC we allow changing to a smaller rig in the Laser fleet,
but one keeps the bigger rig's race handicap number. We have found
that very few people actually use this in practice.------------------------------------
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