Yes. In the “Open Handicap” fleet we permit the skipper to switch to a laser standard, radial, 4.7, or whatever as long as we can agree on a Portsmouth number for the configuration. It sometimes causes a nightmare for the scorer but we want boats on the water. This is a relaxed club season series not a one weekend championship regatta.
In the laser standard one design fleet we would try to follow class rules.
WRT the interesting RRS issues you point out – It is a lot of fun to parse the rules carefully but I don’t expect it will ever be a problem in my setting. We have several “skippers” or persons in charge who let their children wiggle the tiller.
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
It would be interesting to see how this instruction stands up to protest. It effectively changes all of Appendix A (for boat read skipper throughout), rule 75, a rule that, according to 86.1a, cannot be changed. Skipper is not a word that is defined in the racing rules. What would happen if the person in charge, as defined by rule 46, is not the tiller waggler? Who would the points follow as competitors change boats?
Does this mean that a skipper can switch from a Laser Standard to a Laser Radial, or even 4.7 according to conditions?
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
For our season series club races our SI states:
19.1 Trophy competition is between skippers. Therefore, a skipper may shift to
another boat within his fleet and continue the series of scores started with the first
boat.
The skipper must declare a fleet. (handicap, laser, etc) Skippers do switch boats based on crew and weather but I detect no real advantage and it does get boats on the water.
For entry we set the sail number wizard to "Helm" and use the skippers name. For those that change boats we just blank the "Class" and "SailNo" fields. We must, of course, figure out the finish position.
…Gil
has notified the sender that this message has been received.
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
It would be interesting to see how this instruction stands up to protest. It effectively changes all of Appendix A (for boat read skipper throughout), rule 75, a rule that, according to 86.1a, cannot be changed. Skipper is not a word that is defined in the racing rules. What would happen if the person in charge, as defined by rule 46, is not the tiller waggler? Who would the points follow as competitors change boats?
Does this mean that a skipper can switch from a Laser Standard to a Laser Radial, or even 4.7 according to conditions?
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
For our season series club races our SI states:
19.1 Trophy competition is between skippers. Therefore, a skipper may shift to
another boat within his fleet and continue the series of scores started with the first
boat.
The skipper must declare a fleet. (handicap, laser, etc) Skippers do switch boats based on crew and weather but I detect no real advantage and it does get boats on the water.
For entry we set the sail number wizard to "Helm" and use the skippers name. For those that change boats we just blank the "Class" and "SailNo" fields. We must, of course, figure out the finish position.
…Gil
has notified the sender that this message has been received.
Laser Standard, Radial and 4.7 are 3 different classes. The fact that they share the same hull is irrelevant. They are not one class with different rigs that may be used indifferently (18ft Skiffs, most RC classes). We often have problems - same sail number being used on 2 boats, because someone lent his Radial rig to a friend, people changing, not registering as a 4.7 or Radial
Our work round for this problem is that if the scorer has any doubts he scores the boat as a Laser Standard, leaving the competitor free to request redress.
Subject: [sailwave] Re: A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
With the example of a Laser quoted below, it is the same boat (with
the same sail No.) being used, merely the rigs being changed so it
doesn’t contravene RRS. and as I mentioned earlier this is often
allowed for a longer series with the PY adjusted according to the rig
used for the race, but in a short regatta like an open meeting the
rig chosen must be used for all the races.
It would be interesting to see how this instruction stands up to
protest. It effectively changes all of Appendix A (for boat read
skipper throughout), rule 75, a rule that, according to 86.1a, cannot
be changed. Skipper is not a word that is defined in the racing
rules. What would happen if the person in charge, as defined by rule
46, is not the tiller waggler? Who would the points follow as
competitors change boats?
Does this mean that a skipper can switch from a Laser Standard to a
Laser Radial, or even 4.7 according to conditions?
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 4:21 PM
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats
during a handicap series
For our season series club races our SI states:
19.1 Trophy competition is between skippers. Therefore, a skipper
may shift to
another boat within his fleet and continue the series of scores
started with the first
boat.
The skipper must declare a fleet. (handicap, laser, etc)
Skippers do switch boats based on crew and weather but I detect no
real advantage and it does get boats on the water.
For entry we set the sail number wizard to “Helm” and use the
skippers name. For those that change boats we just blank the “Class”
and “SailNo” fields. We must, of course, figure out the finish
position.
…Gil
has notified the sender that this message has been received.
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
Doesn’t give more advantage than tucking a reef on a cruiser…
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: “Mike Croker” mdcroker@which.net
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 6:08 PM
Subject: [sailwave] Re: A single helm using different boats during a
handicap series
It would be interesting to see how this instruction stands up to
protest. It effectively changes all of Appendix A (for boat read
skipper throughout), rule 75, a rule that, according to 86.1a,
cannot be changed.
Fascinating stuff: presumably the RRS would also preclude a sailor
changing to a different single-handed boat of the same class…
Does this mean that a skipper can switch from a Laser Standard to a
Laser Radial, or even 4.7 according to conditions?
At Lancing SC we allow changing to a smaller rig in the Laser fleet,
but one keeps the bigger rig’s race handicap number. We have found
that very few people actually use this in practice.
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
It would be interesting to see how this instruction stands up to protest. It effectively changes all of Appendix A (for boat read skipper throughout), rule 75, a rule that, according to 86.1a, cannot be changed. Skipper is not a word that is defined in the racing rules. What would happen if the person in charge, as defined by rule 46, is not the tiller waggler? Who would the points follow as competitors change boats?
Does this mean that a skipper can switch from a Laser Standard to a Laser Radial, or even 4.7 according to conditions?
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
For our season series club races our SI states:
19.1 Trophy competition is between skippers. Therefore, a skipper may shift to
another boat within his fleet and continue the series of scores started with the first
boat.
The skipper must declare a fleet. (handicap, laser, etc) Skippers do switch boats based on crew and weather but I detect no real advantage and it does get boats on the water.
For entry we set the sail number wizard to "Helm" and use the skippers name. For those that change boats we just blank the "Class" and "SailNo" fields. We must, of course, figure out the finish position.
…Gil
has notified the sender that this message has been received.
has notified the sender that this message has been received.
I probably have not done enough homework, but I have never understood what the alias feature is all about.
I’ve used SailWave since 2001 and love it. I figured out what I could do with SW and made sure our SI was compatable. In fact a USSA judge gave me a bit of a hard time a few years back when she read in my SI a statement to the effect that I was using SW and whatever it did was the answer. I’ve since removed the statement
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
For our season series club races our SI states:
19.1 Trophy competition is between skippers. Therefore, a skipper may shift to
another boat within his fleet and continue the series of scores started with the first
boat.
The skipper must declare a fleet. (handicap, laser, etc) Skippers do switch boats based on crew and weather but I detect no real advantage and it does get boats on the water.
For entry we set the sail number wizard to "Helm" and use the skippers name. For those that change boats we just blank the "Class" and "SailNo" fields. We must, of course, figure out the finish position.
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
It would be interesting to see how this instruction stands up to protest. It effectively changes all of Appendix A (for boat read skipper throughout), rule 75, a rule that, according to 86.1a, cannot be changed. Skipper is not a word that is defined in the racing rules. What would happen if the person in charge, as defined by rule 46, is not the tiller waggler? Who would the points follow as competitors change boats?
Does this mean that a skipper can switch from a Laser Standard to a Laser Radial, or even 4.7 according to conditions?
Subject: Re: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap series
For our season series club races our SI states:
19.1 Trophy competition is between skippers. Therefore, a skipper may shift to
another boat within his fleet and continue the series of scores started with the first
boat.
The skipper must declare a fleet. (handicap, laser, etc) Skippers do switch boats based on crew and weather but I detect no real advantage and it does get boats on the water.
For entry we set the sail number wizard to "Helm" and use the skippers name. For those that change boats we just blank the "Class" and "SailNo" fields. We must, of course, figure out the finish position.
…Gil
has notified the sender that this message has been received.
has notified the sender that this message has been received.
I'm new to this, so I'll start by apologising in case my problem has already been dealt with elsewhere!
I'm trying to use Sailwave to score my Club's Summer long handicap series. Our SI's specifically provide for the Series scoring to be done by Helm rather than by boat, as we have various competitors who for a variety of reasons sail different boats in the course of the summer. When I put in the second boat as a new entry, and mark it as an alias of the first, I get results shown for all the earlier races in the series for the new entry, uing the finishing times for the original entry, but the handicap for the new one. AS one of our entrants changed from a Laser 2 to a Firefly, his times for the LASer 2 calculated using the Firefly handicap have him winnig all the races!
I am marking the Firefly entry as an alias of the earlier Laser 2 entry. Can anybody tell me how this should really be done?
The usual method is using an alias
You enter the new boat, then mark as an alias of an existing competitor.
Phil
----- Original Message -----
From: "trainermo" <mo.allen@...>
To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:33 PM
Subject: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a handicap
series
When entering the results there is a 2nt tab where you can change the
rating used for that race.
The results go against the person/primary boat but for that race are
calculated using the correct handicap.
It will show the boat as being the original one but in the per race
results you will see the correct handicap.
I don't believe aliases work for this.
John
I'm new to this, so I'll start by apologising in case my problem has
already been dealt with elsewhere!
I'm trying to use Sailwave to score my Club's Summer long handicap
series. Our SI's specifically provide for the Series scoring to be
done
by Helm rather than by boat, as we have various competitors who for a
variety of reasons sail different boats in the course of the summer.
When I put in the second boat as a new entry, and mark it as an alias
of the first, I get results shown for all the earlier races in the
series for the new entry, uing the finishing times for the original
entry, but the handicap for the new one. AS one of our entrants
changed
from a Laser 2 to a Firefly, his times for the LASer 2 calculated
using
···
-----Original Message-----
the Firefly handicap have him winnig all the races!
I am marking the Firefly entry as an alias of the earlier Laser 2
entry. Can anybody tell me how this should really be done?
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Philippe DE TROY" <philippe@...>
wrote:
>
> The usual method is using an alias
> You enter the new boat, then mark as an alias of an existing
competitor.
>
> Phil
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "trainermo" <mo.allen@...>
> To: <sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 11:33 PM
> Subject: [sailwave] A single helm using different boats during a
handicap
> series
>
>
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Over a handicap race series, is there a way of using sailwave to
> > calculate results in a series when a competitor has changed boats?
> >
> > An example would be where the helm changes from a laser to a solo
half
> > way through the series?
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Mo
> > KGSC and FGSC
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > -!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/
When entering the results there is a 2nt tab where you can change the
rating used for that race.
The results go against the person/primary boat but for that race are
calculated using the correct handicap.
It will show the boat as being the original one but in the per race
results you will see the correct handicap.
I don't believe aliases work for this.
John
Think this is the third similar request recently. Colin - any hope of
putting something in for the future that makes this more possible?
Requests have been:
- Helm and Crew based scoring (Crew gets same points as helm), Helm &
Crew can change boat several times in series.
- Helm changing boat
Ailias definitely doesn't help!
While changing the rating works - the results table will appear as
though a Firefly sailed when a Laser did. If you sailed the race and
know there was no Firefly in the race you become very confused!!
Just wanted to point this out for people like me who don't read the
rules! As if your club says apply Appendix A, you can't just assume the
sailwave Appendix A works becasue this rule is different.
"A4.2 A boat that did not start, did not finish, retired after finishing or was disqualified shall be scored points for the finishing place one more than the number of boats entered in the series."
Isn't that a definition?
Mike
Lancing SC
I have managed to make John Harvey’s suggestion work,
by setting a new handicap from the race in which the boat was changed, but as
Calum says, that leaves me with a table of results which is at best confusing!
I came to using Sailwave, rather than a home-grown suite of
Excel sheets, in order to be able to send results to the RYA for the PY
Returns. Unfortunately, the “handicap fudge” renders the data pretty
much useless for that purpose, as I am now showing a Firefly doing half our
races with the PY (and apparent speed!) of a Laser 2, and a Topper which seems
to sail like a Laser, among other anomalies!
It seems to me that what I need is the ability to create a
series table using only certain attributes of the Entry (just the Helm name
would suffice!) but that doesn’t seem to be possible – can anyone
tell me that I’ve missed something, or is this something for the wish
list?
I should say that apart from this one difficulty, I think
the software is very good!
When entering the results there is a 2nt tab where you can change the
rating used for that race.
The results go against the person/primary boat but for that race are
calculated using the correct handicap.
It will show the boat as being the original one but in the per race
results you will see the correct handicap.
I don’t believe aliases work for this.
John
Think this is the third similar request recently. Colin - any hope of
putting something in for the future that makes this more possible?
Requests have been:
Helm and Crew based scoring (Crew gets same points as helm), Helm &
Crew can change boat several times in series.
Helm changing boat
Ailias definitely doesn’t help!
While changing the rating works - the results table will appear as
though a Firefly sailed when a Laser did. If you sailed the race and
know there was no Firefly in the race you become very confused!!
What about if you could specify the class as well
as the rating in the ‘per race’ window (edit+race). Then the PY
wizard has enough knowledge to send back the correct class…?
How did people resolve it when doing returns manually?
As regard to publishing and screen layout - I can’t think of any
solution other than putting ‘various’ or ‘laser, rs200, dart18’ for
example in a spare field and publishing tthat instead of the default
class field.
PS: I agree with whoever said that there is too much post processing
after sending results to the RYA - IMO it’s totally unnecessary - but
it’s out of may hands by that time… I voiced my tentative opinion
about why it happens to the RYA tech head when I was at Sail for Gold.
But it was potentially slandouous so I can’t repeat it here.
I have been using the rating as a fudge for different boats, with a
comment in the notes. Then for the PY return I would download all Race
results and do some work in Excel to identify the lines that have a PY
that doesn’t match the class, then for the rows that are wrong update
the class based on the PY. Then summerise it all to update the RYA
spreadsheet.
I agree. If a helm can use a different class during a series then he/she can use a class most suited to the conditions for the day. That seems to me to give an advantage to the helm with the most classes at his/her disposal.
Helms are free to choose their crew however. Light one for light winds and heavy for strong winds. Just don't suggest which are the heavy ones
If competitors are to be allowed to change boat in light of conditions then a handicap penalty seems appropriate - say 10%. And a hefty contribution both the the scorers tab behind bar (he'll need it) and to an appropriate charity.
Gordon
kev11nuk wrote:
···
I agree. If a helm can use a different class during a series then he/she can use a class most suited to the conditions for the day. That seems to me to give an advantage to the helm with the most classes at his/her disposal.
Helms are free to choose their crew however. Light one for light winds and heavy for strong winds. Just don't suggest which are the heavy ones
Kevin Morgan
Broadwater SC
--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>, "Mike" <mdcroker@...> wrote:
>
> "How did people resolve it when doing returns manually?"
>
> Simple: we regard 'helm + boat (class)' as a series entry: if you want to use a different boat then that's a new series entry
>
> PS: for Lasers, you can 'reef' with a smaller rig, but keep the original PY - but no one bothers!
>
> PPS: The crew's union would probably add that if you change crews that should be a new entry too :o
>
> Mike
> Lancing SC
>
"A4.2 A boat that did not start, did not finish, retired after finishing
or was disqualified shall be scored points for the finishing place one
more than the number of boats entered in the series."
Isn't that a definition?
Indeed it is! But can someone then explain A5:
A5 SCORES DETERMINED BY THE RACE COMMITTEE
A boat that did not start, comply with rule 30.2 or 30.3, or finish, or
that takes a penalty under rule 44.3(a) or retires after finishing,
shall be scored accordingly by the race committee without a hearing.
Only the protest committee may take other scoring actions that worsen a
boat’s score.
Does that mean shall be scored according to rule A4.2... ...cause thats
NOT what it says. To me it says the race committee will determine the
score! (I am not a judge or anything like that - just a computer geek
who gets the treat of sorting the club results... ...who then is
expected to understand lots of very amiguous phrases in SIs that when i
go back and question what they mean people say "oh it doesn't mean
that!"... )
For our season series club races our SI states:
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