Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Imported from Yahoo
1

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like "We use this scoring system, can SW do it
for us?"

I could be high point or low point, or what ever... I've been
thinking that if I had the possibility to combine "Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points" and "Custom high/low point defined
by a formula", I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a "Custom high/low point list of formulas". Like
this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points
more than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2
points more than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets (
p+(s+1))and so on.

If it wasn't for the first result, I could have used "Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points" like this: 12.25,12
Since the next is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway... That's why I want "Custom high/low
point list of formulas", then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)
and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the "Custom high/low point list of
formulas" coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats...

I'm not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are... So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more "standard" scorings...

regards,
Martin

2

“…all the rest should get 1 point”.

I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank (position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last weekend

Ralph

···

From: mboelgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like “We use this scoring system, can SW do it
for us?”

I could be high point or low point, or what ever… I’ve been
thinking that if I had the possibility to combine “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” and “Custom high/low point defined
by a formula”, I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a “Custom high/low point list of formulas”. Like
this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points
more than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2
points more than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets (
p+(s+1))and so on.

If it wasn’t for the first result, I could have used “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” like this: 12.25,12
Since the next is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway… That’s why I want “Custom high/low
point list of formulas”, then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)
and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the “Custom high/low point list of
formulas” coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats…

I’m not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are… So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more “standard” scorings…

regards,
Martin

3

Go for
CHIPS high point scoring which gives fair results for any number of boats and resolves
ties. (Well it is very rare for CHIPS to fail to do so).

Geoff

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfRalph Tingle
Sent: 06 November 2006 17:16
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

“…all the rest should get 1
point”.

I have been trying to master this recently
with great success but when boats finish in different places & all
get the same points, there is a problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on
race scores not actual rank (position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other
variations of special points systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some
results from this last weekend

Ralph

From: mboelgen
[mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like "We use this scoring system, can SW do it

for us?"

I could be high point or low point, or what ever… I’ve been

thinking that if I had the possibility to combine "Custom high/low

point defined by a list of points" and "Custom high/low point defined

by a formula", I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a “Custom high/low point list of formulas”. Like

this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points

more than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2

points more than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets (

p+(s+1))and so on.

If it wasn’t for the first result, I could have used "Custom high/low

point defined by a list of points" like this: 12.25,12

Since the next is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it

would not be correct anyway… That’s why I want "Custom high/low

point list of formulas", then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)

and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)

boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get

1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the "Custom high/low point list of

formulas" coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats…

I’m not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are… So if

I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps

clubs should use more “standard” scorings…

regards,

Martin

4

Hi Geoff

Would CHIPS have resolved the RS 300 trial results in the attached?

‘Fair play’ suggests that 5th & 6th should be reversed as both had a 3rd place but the 6th boat had a 4th & should have been 5th under the spirit of App A8

Ralph

···

From: Geoff Burrell [mailto:geoff.burrell@btinternet.com]
Sent: 06 November 2006 17:43
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Go for CHIPS high point scoring which gives fair results for any number of boats and resolves ties. (Well it is very rare for CHIPS to fail to do so).

Geoff

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 06 November 2006 17:16
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

“…all the rest should get 1 point”.

I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank (position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last weekend

Ralph

From: mboelgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like “We use this scoring system, can SW do it
for us?”

I could be high point or low point, or what ever… I’ve been
thinking that if I had the possibility to combine “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” and “Custom high/low point defined
by a formula”, I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a “Custom high/low point list of formulas”. Like
this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points
more than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2
points more than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets (
p+(s+1))and so on.

If it wasn’t for the first result, I could have used “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” like this: 12.25,12
Since the next is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway… That’s why I want “Custom high/low
point list of formulas”, then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)
and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the “Custom high/low point list of
formulas” coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats…

I’m not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are… So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more “standard” scorings…

regards,
Martin

5

Hi, Ralph!

How is this actual points system you’re dealing with?

I understand it like you’re using SW, but are having problems with ties… ?

regards,

Martin

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 6:15 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

“… all the rest should get 1 point”.

I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank (position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last weekend

Ralph

From: mboelgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like “We use this scoring system, can SW do it
for us?”

I could be high point or low point, or what ever… I’ve been
thinking that if I had the possibility to combine “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” and “Custom high/low point defined
by a formula”, I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a “Custom high/low point list of formulas”. Like
this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points
more than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2
points more than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets (
p+(s+1))and so on.

If it wasn’t for the first result, I could have used “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” like this: 12.25,12
Since the next is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway… That’s why I want “Custom high/low
point list of formulas”, then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)
and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the “Custom high/low point list of
formulas” coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats…

I’m not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are… So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more “standard” scorings…

regards,
Martin

6

Hi!

I would like to use SW…

Not that I don’t like anything else, but I need to practice to “stay tuned”… So, I prefere using SW as long I could…

Regards,

Martin

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Geoff Burrell

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 6:42 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Go for CHIPS high point scoring which gives fair results for any number of boats and resolves ties. (Well it is very rare for CHIPS to fail to do so).

Geoff

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 06 November 2006 17:16
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

“…all the rest should get 1 point”.

I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank (position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last weekend

Ralph

From: mboelgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like “We use this scoring system, can SW do it
for us?”

I could be high point or low point, or what ever… I’ve been
thinking that if I had the possibility to combine “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” and “Custom high/low point defined
by a formula”, I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a “Custom high/low point list of formulas”. Like
this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points
more than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2
points more than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets (
p+(s+1))and so on.

If it wasn’t for the first result, I could have used “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” like this: 12.25,12
Since the next is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway… That’s why I want “Custom high/low
point list of formulas”, then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)
and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the “Custom high/low point list of
formulas” coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats…

I’m not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are… So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more “standard” scorings…

regards,
Martin

7

Hi Martin

If you look at the sample file that I have just posted, 1st gets 3 points, 2nd gets 2 & 3rd gets 1; all other boats get zero.

It is a similar system to Formula 1 motor racing

In a previous posting, someone suggested using say 0.0009. 0.0008 etc instead of zero for the lower places but this still did not work as SW rounds both to 0.001 & THEN breaks the tie ie both are =

Ralph

···

From: Martin Bølgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 06 November 2006 18:40
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Ralph!

How is this actual points system you’re dealing with?

I understand it like you’re using SW, but are having problems with ties… ?

regards,

Martin

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 6:15 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

“… all the rest should get 1 point”.

I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank (position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last weekend

Ralph

From: mboelgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like “We use this scoring system, can SW do it
for us?”

I could be high point or low point, or what ever… I’ve been
thinking that if I had the possibility to combine “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” and “Custom high/low point defined
by a formula”, I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a “Custom high/low point list of formulas”. Like
this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points
more than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2
points more than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets (
p+(s+1))and so on.

If it wasn’t for the first result, I could have used “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” like this: 12.25,12
Since the next is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway… That’s why I want “Custom high/low
point list of formulas”, then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)
and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the “Custom high/low point list of
formulas” coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats…

I’m not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are… So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more “standard” scorings…

regards,
Martin

8

Hi, Ralph.

I’m not very used to “special” scoring systems…

But, I’ve been looking at your SW file and can’t see that it could have been scored otherwise.

If the SI says that a place from 4th and below shall be scored 0-points, it must have the meaning that these boats shall be considered as finishing equal… So, if position 5th gives 0 points and 6th gives 0 points, the positions can’t be considered anymore…

We sometimes have boats that finishes equal… Their points will then be equal…

regards,

Martin

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 8:01 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Martin

If you look at the sample file that I have just posted, 1st gets 3 points, 2nd gets 2 & 3rd gets 1; all other boats get zero.

It is a similar system to Formula 1 motor racing

In a previous posting, someone suggested using say 0.0009. 0.0008 etc instead of zero for the lower places but this still did not work as SW rounds both to 0.001 & THEN breaks the tie ie both are =

Ralph

From: Martin Bølgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 06 November 2006 18:40
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Ralph!

How is this actual points system you’re dealing with?

I understand it like you’re using SW, but are having problems with ties… ?

regards,

Martin

----- Original Message -----

From: Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006 6:15 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

“… all the rest should get 1 point”.

I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank (position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last weekend

Ralph

From: mboelgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
[sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like "We use this scoring system, can SW do it

for us?"

I could be high point or low point, or what ever... I've been
thinking that if I had the possibility to combine "Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points" and "Custom high/low point defined
by a formula", I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a "Custom high/low point list of formulas". Like

this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points
more than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2
points more than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets (

p+(s+1))and so on.

If it wasn't for the first result, I could have used "Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points" like this: 12.25,12
Since the next is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway... That's why I want "Custom high/low
point list of formulas", then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)

and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the "Custom high/low point list of
formulas" coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats...

I'm not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are... So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more "standard" scorings...

regards,
Martin

9

Message
We had a protest on the weekend as one of the boats hit a marker and did not take the penalty turn. The Commitee decided to penalise the boat in question by one position which took him from second last position to last position anyhow.

I was wondering if SW makes provision for such an adjustment or whether the only way I could show such an adjustment was by altering his finishing time to be after that of the last boat? I would however prefer for his correct finishing time to be reflected in the results and the results to reflect that he was penalised, either by a time penalty (%) or simply by a position penalty.

How is this supposed to be done?

Regards
Terry

10

Hi Terry

Have a look at the scoring code for Z flag penalty (ZFP)

Rule 44.3 © deals with this type of penalty.

You can probably calculate the required percentage which is equivalent to 1 place.

Re the decision of the protest committee, can they penalise by one place for hitting marks?

Have a look at Rule 64.1 (a) which suggests that the penalty can only be DSQ, unless you have written something special into your SIs

I am not a judge so happy to be corrected on this point

As you say, moving the boat from 2nd last to last does not really matter in this situation but would have if he had finished at the front of the fleet!

Ralph

···

From: Terry [mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
Sent: 06 November 2006 19:35
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Redress Point Adjustment

We had a protest on the weekend as one of the boats hit a marker and did not take the penalty turn. The Commitee decided to penalise the boat in question by one position which took him from second last position to last position anyhow.

I was wondering if SW makes provision for such an adjustment or whether the only way I could show such an adjustment was by altering his finishing time to be after that of the last boat? I would however prefer for his correct finishing time to be reflected in the results and the results to reflect that he was penalised, either by a time penalty (%) or simply by a position penalty.

How is this supposed to be done?

Regards
Terry

11

Hi Ralph

Yes CHIPS would have resolved it but of course so too would conventional
low point scoring.

Clearly if you decide to make it such that all positions below third score
zero then there is no way of distinguishing between a 4th and a 5th
in any one race.

The CHIPS scores for your current 5th & 6th rankings
are:

5th - 66, 81.4,
66 = 147.4

6th – 81.4, 73.4, 58.4 = 155.1

So your 6th beats your 5th with the higher score.

I fear that I must be missing something subtle since I feel sure you will
know that LPS gives the right order too??

Geoff.

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfRalph Tingle
Sent: 06 November 2006 18:39
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

Hi Geoff

Would CHIPS have resolved the RS 300 trial
results in the attached?

‘Fair play’ suggests that 5th & 6th
should be reversed as both had a 3rd place but the 6th boat had a 4th &
should have been 5th under the spirit of App A8

Ralph

From: Geoff Burrell
[mailto:geoff.burrell@btinternet.com]
Sent: 06 November 2006 17:43
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

Go for CHIPS high point scoring
which gives fair results for any number of boats and resolves ties. (Well it is
very rare for CHIPS to fail to do so).

Geoff

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 06 November 2006 17:16
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

“…all the rest should get 1 point”.

I have been trying to master this recently with great
success but when boats finish in different places & all get the
same points, there is a problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank
(position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special
points systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last
weekend

Ralph

From: mboelgen
[mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like "We use this scoring system, can SW do it

for us?"

I could be high point or low point, or what ever… I’ve been

thinking that if I had the possibility to combine "Custom high/low

point defined by a list of points" and "Custom high/low point defined

by a formula", I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a “Custom high/low point list of formulas”. Like

this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points

more than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2

points more than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets (

p+(s+1))and so on.

If it wasn’t for the first result, I could have used "Custom high/low

point defined by a list of points" like this: 12.25,12

Since the next is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it

would not be correct anyway… That’s why I want "Custom high/low

point list of formulas", then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)

and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)

boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get

1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the "Custom high/low point list of

formulas" coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats…

I’m not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are… So if

I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps

clubs should use more “standard” scorings…

regards,

Martin

12

Hi Geoff

I am developing a new (to me anyway) format of racing, with a view to making our sport more spectator friendly & protecting our place in the Olympics

Racing is over short 15mins races in starts of approx 10 boats.

Depending on numbers, there are heats, qtr finals, semis & Finals (similar to Olympic 100 metres)

Scores are not carried forward from one round to the next so the objective is simply to qualify for the next round.

The format also ensures that everyone on the start line for the Gold Final has a chance of winning medals but at the same time, those who do not ‘qualify’ still keep racing so there are ‘finals’ for 1st - 10th, 11th - 20th etc

The scoring system also need to be easier to understand

  • Each round consists of a series of 3 races

  • Race points are awarded to the top 50% of the fleet eg 1st = 5 points, 2nd = 4 etc

  • No discards

  • Top 50% go through up to next round, bottom 50% go ‘down’ to minor fleets

I have chosen high points (similar to motor racing) so that it follows more conventional sporting scoring ie win & gain points

Also boats that have a bad race do not lose too much ground & can still come back & qualify for the next round

The SW issue has been that with 3 races, it is possible (as per my sample file) for boats to tie on points

When this tie means that one boats qualifies for the next round & the other doesn’t, it only seems fair that we should look at their non-scoring races.

The first event was this Saturday with the RS fleets 200, Vareo, 300, 400 & 800 (we had 8 starts)

We did not have a single race grand final due to time & a requirement to run the vent for multiple classes

I am waiting for feedback but initial comments were FANTASTIC!!

WRT CHIPS

I appreciate that it will work but I suspect working out that a boat has qualified with 147.4 points & the other with 155.1 will be too much for spectators.

So no - you have not missed something subtle, just me with nothing better to do with my time :wink:

Ralph

···

From: Geoff Burrell [mailto:geoff.burrell@btinternet.com]
Sent: 06 November 2006 21:30
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Ralph

Yes CHIPS would have resolved it but of course so too would conventional low point scoring.

Clearly if you decide to make it such that all positions below third score zero then there is no way of distinguishing between a 4th and a 5th in any one race.

The CHIPS scores for your current 5th & 6th rankings are:

5th

  • 66, 81.4, 66 = 147.4

6th – 81.4, 73.4, 58.4 = 155.1

So your 6th
beats your 5th with the higher score.

I fear that I must be missing something subtle since I feel sure you will know that LPS gives the right order too??

Geoff.

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 06 November 2006 18:39
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Geoff

Would CHIPS have resolved the RS 300 trial results in the attached?

‘Fair play’ suggests that 5th & 6th should be reversed as both had a 3rd place but the 6th boat had a 4th & should have been 5th under the spirit of App A8

Ralph

From: Geoff Burrell [mailto:geoff.burrell@btinternet.com]
Sent: 06 November 2006 17:43
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Go for CHIPS high point scoring which gives fair results for any number of boats and resolves ties. (Well it is very rare for CHIPS to fail to do so).

Geoff

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 06 November 2006 17:16
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

“…all the rest should get 1 point”.

I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank (position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last weekend

Ralph

From: mboelgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like “We use this scoring system, can SW do it
for us?”

I could be high point or low point, or what ever… I’ve been
thinking that if I had the possibility to combine “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” and “Custom high/low point defined
by a formula”, I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a “Custom high/low point list of formulas”. Like
this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points
more than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2
points more than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets (
p+(s+1))and so on.

If it wasn’t for the first result, I could have used “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” like this: 12.25,12
Since the next is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway… That’s why I want “Custom high/low
point list of formulas”, then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)
and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the “Custom high/low point list of
formulas” coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats…

I’m not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are… So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more “standard” scorings…

regards,
Martin

13

OK for events where start line rules observance is strongly policed
(like motor racing) but not for the average open meeting scrummage,
IMHO :frowning:

Racing is over short 15mins races in starts of approx 10 boats.
Depending on numbers, there are heats, qtr finals, semis & Finals

(similar to Olympic 100 metres)

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@...> wrote:

14

Ralph, FWIW, i think this is a brilliant idea, though i guess for the
olypics you would need to have a fairly large number of initial starters.

Simon
SUGmaster

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@... wrote:

Hi Geoff I am developing a new (to me anyway) format of racing, with a
view to making our sport more spectator friendly & protecting our
place in the Olympics

Racing is over short 15mins races in starts of approx 10 boats.
Depending on numbers, there are heats, qtr finals, semis & Finals
(similar to Olympic 100 metres) Scores are not carried forward from
one round to the next so the objective is simply to qualify for the
next round. The format also ensures that everyone on the start line
for the Gold Final has a chance of winning medals but at the same
time, those who do not 'qualify' still keep racing so there are
'finals' for
1st - 10th, 11th - 20th etc

The scoring system also need to be easier to understand
- Each round consists of a series of 3 races
- Race points are awarded to the top 50% of the fleet eg 1st = 5
points, 2nd = 4 etc
- No discards
- Top 50% go through up to next round, bottom 50% go 'down' to minor
fleets

I have chosen high points (similar to motor racing) so that it follows
more conventional sporting scoring ie win & gain points Also boats
that have a bad race do not lose too much ground & can still come back
& qualify for the next round

The SW issue has been that with 3 races, it is possible (as per my
sample file) for boats to tie on points When this tie means that one
boats qualifies for the next round & the other doesn't, it only seems
fair that we should look at their non-scoring races.

The first event was this Saturday with the RS fleets 200, Vareo, 300,
400 & 800 (we had 8 starts) We did not have a single race grand final
due to time & a requirement to run the vent for multiple classes

I am waiting for feedback but initial comments were FANTASTIC!!

WRT CHIPS I appreciate that it will work but I suspect working out
that a boat has qualified with 147.4 points & the other with 155.1
will be too much for spectators. So no - you have not missed something
subtle, just me with nothing better to do with my time :wink:

Ralph

_____

From: Geoff Burrell [mailto: geoff.burrell@...] Sent: 06 November 2006
21:30 To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

Hi Ralph

Yes CHIPS would have resolved it but of course so too would
conventional low point scoring.

Clearly if you decide to make it such that all positions below third
score zero then there is no way of distinguishing between a 4th and a
5th in any one race.

The CHIPS scores for your current 5th & 6th rankings are:

5th - 66, 81.4, 66 = 147.4

6th - 81.4, 73.4, 58.4 = 155.1

So your 6th beats your 5th with the higher score.

I fear that I must be missing something subtle since I feel sure you
will know that LPS gives the right order too??

Geoff.

-----Original Message----- From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle Sent: 06 November
2006 18:39 To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [sailwave]
Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Geoff

Would CHIPS have resolved the RS 300 trial results in the attached?

'Fair play' suggests that 5th & 6th should be reversed as both had a
3rd place but the 6th boat had a 4th & should have been 5th under the
spirit of App A8

Ralph

_____

From: Geoff Burrell [mailto: geoff.burrell@...] Sent: 06 November 2006
17:43 To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

Go for CHIPS high point scoring which gives fair results for any
number of boats and resolves ties.
(Well it is very rare for CHIPS to fail to do so).

Geoff

-----Original Message----- From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle Sent: 06 November
2006 17:16 To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [sailwave]
Scoring systems - Generalisation?

".... all the rest should get 1 point".

I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when
boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a
problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank
(position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points
systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last weekend

Ralph

_____

From: mboelgen [mailto: martin@...] Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50 To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com Subject: [sailwave] Scoring systems -
Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like "We use this scoring system, can SW do it
for us?"

I could be high point or low point, or what ever... I've been thinking
that if I had the possibility to combine "Custom high/low point
defined by a list of points" and "Custom high/low point defined by a
formula", I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a "Custom high/low point list of formulas". Like this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points more
than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2 points more
than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets ( p+(s+1))and
so on.

If it wasn't for the first result, I could have used "Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points" like this: 12.25,12 Since the next
is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway... That's why I want "Custom high/low
point list of formulas", then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)
and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the "Custom high/low point list of
formulas" coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats...

I'm not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are... So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more "standard" scorings...

regards, Martin

15

Hi Mike

The advantage of 10 boats on a short line on a short course is that it reduces the necessity for a perfect start.

There is virtually no favoured end & boats need concentrate much more on tacking, gybing & mark rounding skills

I also have an SI which says

“For the purposes of Rule 41, the actions of the Race Committee on the Start boat, in helping the fleet to achieve a fair start, will not be defined as ‘outside help’ or provide grounds for redress”

This means that we talk (through a megaphone) to competitors & if they are over the line well before the start gun, we can tell them so that they can get back.

If they are over at the time of the start signal, there is an SI which says they must go back round the ends (ie not totally I flag rule)

I agree that this will not suit every class/type of event but for those who want something different …

Ralph

···

From: Mike Croker [mailto:mdcroker@which.net]
Sent: 07 November 2006 10:37
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

OK for events where start line rules observance is strongly policed
(like motor racing) but not for the average open meeting scrummage,
IMHO :frowning:
— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, “Ralph Tingle” <rat@…> wrote:

Racing is over short 15mins races in starts of approx 10 boats.
Depending on numbers, there are heats, qtr finals, semis & Finals
(similar to Olympic 100 metres)

16

Hi Simon

Yes- the full blown Sprint format is best for a single class with largish numbers over at least a weekend

This Saturday, we ran it (with some mods) where the biggest class was 16 boats!

The smallest start was RS400 with 6 boats in each semi

We ran a semis/finals for some classes & single series for classes with 6 entries!

The SIs are on Rutlandsc.co.uk site. They are a bit messy due to major last minute changes requested by the class association but in the end, the briefing worked, our race team had to work hard (a la team racing scheduling) & the sailors went home wanting more next year :slight_smile:

Ralph

···

From: Simon [mailto:simon@smith.net]
Sent: 07 November 2006 10:41
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

Ralph, FWIW, i think this is a brilliant idea, though i guess for the
olypics you would need to have a fairly large number of initial starters.

Simon
SUGmaster

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, “Ralph Tingle” <rat@… wrote:

Hi Geoff I am developing a new (to me anyway) format of racing, with a
view to making our sport more spectator friendly & protecting our
place in the Olympics

Racing is over short 15mins races in starts of approx 10 boats.
Depending on numbers, there are heats, qtr finals, semis & Finals
(similar to Olympic 100 metres) Scores are not carried forward from
one round to the next so the objective is simply to qualify for the
next round. The format also ensures that everyone on the start line
for the Gold Final has a chance of winning medals but at the same
time, those who do not ‘qualify’ still keep racing so there are
‘finals’ for
1st - 10th, 11th - 20th etc

The scoring system also need to be easier to understand

  • Each round consists of a series of 3 races
  • Race points are awarded to the top 50% of the fleet eg 1st = 5
    points, 2nd = 4 etc
  • No discards
  • Top 50% go through up to next round, bottom 50% go ‘down’ to minor
    fleets

I have chosen high points (similar to motor racing) so that it follows
more conventional sporting scoring ie win & gain points Also boats
that have a bad race do not lose too much ground & can still come back
& qualify for the next round

The SW issue has been that with 3 races, it is possible (as per my
sample file) for boats to tie on points When this tie means that one
boats qualifies for the next round & the other doesn’t, it only seems
fair that we should look at their non-scoring races.

The first event was this Saturday with the RS fleets 200, Vareo, 300,
400 & 800 (we had 8 starts) We did not have a single race grand final
due to time & a requirement to run the vent for multiple classes

I am waiting for feedback but initial comments were FANTASTIC!!

WRT CHIPS I appreciate that it will work but I suspect working out
that a boat has qualified with 147.4 points & the other with 155.1
will be too much for spectators. So no - you have not missed something
subtle, just me with nothing better to do with my time :wink:

Ralph

From: Geoff Burrell [mailto: geoff.burrell@…] Sent: 06 November 2006
21:30 To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

Hi Ralph

Yes CHIPS would have resolved it but of course so too would
conventional low point scoring.

Clearly if you decide to make it such that all positions below third
score zero then there is no way of distinguishing between a 4th and a
5th in any one race.

The CHIPS scores for your current 5th & 6th rankings are:

5th - 66, 81.4, 66 = 147.4

6th - 81.4, 73.4, 58.4 = 155.1

So your 6th beats your 5th with the higher score.

I fear that I must be missing something subtle since I feel sure you
will know that LPS gives the right order too??

Geoff.

-----Original Message----- From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle Sent: 06 November
2006 18:39 To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave]
Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Geoff

Would CHIPS have resolved the RS 300 trial results in the attached?

‘Fair play’ suggests that 5th & 6th should be reversed as both had a
3rd place but the 6th boat had a 4th & should have been 5th under the
spirit of App A8

Ralph

From: Geoff Burrell [mailto: geoff.burrell@…] Sent: 06 November 2006
17:43 To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

Go for CHIPS high point scoring which gives fair results for any
number of boats and resolves ties.
(Well it is very rare for CHIPS to fail to do so).

Geoff

-----Original Message----- From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle Sent: 06 November
2006 17:16 To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave]
Scoring systems - Generalisation?

“… all the rest should get 1 point”.

I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when
boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a
problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank
(position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points
systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last weekend

Ralph

From: mboelgen [mailto: martin@…] Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50 To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring systems -
Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like “We use this scoring system, can SW do it
for us?”

I could be high point or low point, or what ever… I’ve been thinking
that if I had the possibility to combine “Custom high/low point
defined by a list of points” and “Custom high/low point defined by a
formula”, I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a “Custom high/low point list of formulas”. Like this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points more
than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2 points more
than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets ( p+(s+1))and
so on.

If it wasn’t for the first result, I could have used “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” like this: 12.25,12 Since the next
is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway… That’s why I want “Custom high/low
point list of formulas”, then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)
and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the “Custom high/low point list of
formulas” coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats…

I’m not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are… So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more “standard” scorings…

regards, Martin

17

Hmm, interesting observation about reducing the necessity for a
perfect start (but then I've not tried it, but you have), but I see
where you are coming from.
Sounds an excellent idea from the spectator viewpoint though, and I
agree that it would make an excellent Olympic format. Might even
level the playing field a bit by removing some of the technical boat
speed requirement (equipment) and putting more emphasis on sailor
skill (which is what it should be about, IMHO).
Nice :slight_smile:

Hi Mike
The advantage of 10 boats on a short line on a short course is that

it reduces the necessity for a

perfect start.
There is virtually no favoured end & boats need concentrate much

more on tacking, gybing & mark

rounding skills
I also have an SI which says
"For the purposes of Rule 41, the actions of the Race Committee on

the Start boat, in helping the

fleet to achieve a fair start, will not be defined as 'outside help'

or provide grounds for redress"

This means that we talk (through a megaphone) to competitors & if

they are over the line well before

the start gun, we can tell them so that they can get back.
If they are over at the time of the start signal, there is an SI

which says they must go back round

the ends (ie not totally I flag rule)

I agree that this will not suit every class/type of event but for

those who want something different

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@...> wrote:

..........

Ralph

18

Hi Ralph

Yes indeed this is a good event format.

It would seem to me that you need to be able to distinguish between scores
further down the fleet, which of course you cannot do if the bottom half are
scored with nil points. This is of course the basis of previous suggestions
that have been offered by others based upon small decimals (0.0001 etc).

There is no reason why you could not score all positions, first to last,
so that you can decide who comes in the top 50% since there is then no such
thing as a non-scoring race.

The scheme you decide to use may depend on whether the number of boats
varies race-to-race within each round.
If not then it is easy since you can score high points with the simplest
of all methods with the winner scoring s
points. But because this is simple
linear scoring you can make it whatever you like (i.e… winner scores s + anything) and you would still get the same
winner and qualifiers.

And if the number of boats varies race-to-race within the round then you
need to make sure the score for the winner is at least equal to the number of competitors
in the round. While this is very simple and will work fine this is not quite as
fair as a scoring system like CHIPS which in effect makes smallish adjustments
for the number of boats and always restricts the scores for finishers to be
between 100 and 10. Ties are
usually resolved when the number of boats varies but they are not necessarily resolved
if the number of boats stays unchanged.

But for the greatest simplicity and to make it understandable to
spectators and competitors alike, and to allow for the fact that different classes
will have different numbers of competitors, why not apply the following simple
method:

For all fleets, irrespective of how many boats take part, then score -

1st = 100

2nd = 99

3rd = 98

etc

Will not this always work (provided of course that the number of boats
in a race is less than 100)? Or if
you don’t like the idea of large numbers you just need to make the score for a first
is slightly greater than the max number of boats in the biggest fleet. Simple to do and simple to understand!

Just an idea….

Geoff

···

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf OfRalph Tingle
Sent: 07 November 2006 10:26
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Sprint Racing

Hi Geoff

I am
developing a new (to me anyway) format of racing, with a view to making our sport more spectator friendly & protecting our place in the Olympics

Racing is over short 15mins races in
starts of approx 10 boats.

Depending on numbers, there are heats, qtr
finals, semis & Finals (similar to Olympic 100 metres)

Scores are not carried forward from one
round to the next so the objective is simply to qualify for the next round.

The format also ensures that everyone on
the start line for the Gold Final has a chance of winning medals but at
the same time, those who do not ‘qualify’ still keep racing so there are
‘finals’ for 1st - 10th, 11th - 20th etc

The scoring system also need to be easier
to understand

  • Each round consists of a series of 3 races

  • Race points are awarded to the top 50%
    of the fleet eg 1st = 5 points, 2nd = 4 etc

  • No discards

  • Top 50% go through up to next round,
    bottom 50% go ‘down’ to minor fleets

I have chosen high points (similar to
motor racing) so that it follows more conventional sporting scoring ie win
& gain points

Also boats that have a bad race do not
lose too much ground & can still come back & qualify for the next round

The SW issue has been that with 3 races,
it is possible (as per my sample file) for boats to tie on points

When this tie means that one boats
qualifies for the next round & the other doesn’t, it only seems fair
that we should look at their non-scoring races.

The first event was this Saturday
with the RS fleets 200, Vareo, 300, 400 & 800 (we had 8 starts)

We did not have a single race grand final
due to time & a requirement to run the vent for multiple classes

I am waiting for feedback but initial
comments were FANTASTIC!!

WRT CHIPS

I appreciate that it will work but I
suspect working out that a boat has qualified with 147.4 points &
the other with 155.1 will be too much for spectators.

So no - you have not missed something
subtle, just me with nothing better to do with my time :wink:

Ralph

From: Geoff Burrell
[mailto:geoff.burrell@btinternet.com]
Sent: 06 November 2006 21:30
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

Hi Ralph

Yes CHIPS would have resolved it but of
course so too would conventional low point scoring.

Clearly if you decide to make it such that
all positions below third score zero then there is no way of distinguishing
between a 4th and a 5th in any one race.

The CHIPS scores for your current 5th
& 6th rankings are:

5th - 66, 81.4, 66
= 147.4

6th – 81.4, 73.4, 58.4 = 155.1

So your 6th beats your 5th
with the higher score.

I fear that I must be missing something
subtle since I feel sure you will know that LPS gives the right order too??

Geoff.

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 06 November 2006 18:39
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

Hi Geoff

Would CHIPS have resolved the RS 300 trial results in the attached?

‘Fair play’ suggests that 5th & 6th should be reversed
as both had a 3rd place but the 6th boat had a 4th & should have been 5th
under the spirit of App A8

Ralph

From: Geoff Burrell
[mailto:geoff.burrell@btinternet.com]
Sent: 06 November 2006 17:43
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

Go for CHIPS high point scoring which gives fair results for
any number of boats and resolves ties. (Well it is very rare for CHIPS to fail
to do so).

Geoff

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On
Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 06 November 2006 17:16
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

“…all the rest should get 1 point”.

I have been trying to master this recently with great
success but when boats finish in different places & all get the
same points, there is a problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank
(position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special
points systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last
weekend

Ralph

From: mboelgen
[mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring
systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like "We use this scoring system, can SW do it

for us?"

I could be high point or low point, or what ever… I’ve been

thinking that if I had the possibility to combine "Custom high/low

point defined by a list of points" and "Custom high/low point defined

by a formula", I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a “Custom high/low point list of formulas”. Like

this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points

more than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2

points more than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets (

p+(s+1))and so on.

If it wasn’t for the first result, I could have used "Custom high/low

point defined by a list of points" like this: 12.25,12

Since the next is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it

would not be correct anyway… That’s why I want "Custom high/low

point list of formulas", then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)

and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)

boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get

1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the "Custom high/low point list of

formulas" coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats…

I’m not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are… So if

I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps

clubs should use more “standard” scorings…

regards,

Martin

19

OK Ralph, got my imagination going! With your 16 boats what about a
"Strictly Come Dancing" format? Everyone starts race 1 with the last 2
finishers dropping out, race follows race with the last 2 dropping out
til you end up with 6 entries for the medal race.

Simon

···

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "Ralph Tingle" <rat@... wrote:

Hi Simon Yes- the full blown Sprint format is best for a single class
with largish numbers over at least a weekend This Saturday, we ran it
(with some mods) where the biggest class was 16 boats! The smallest
start was RS400 with 6 boats in each semi

We ran a semis/finals for some classes & single series for classes
with 6 entries!

The SIs are on Rutlandsc. co. uk site. They are a bit messy due to
major last minute changes requested by the class association but in
the end, the briefing worked, our race team had to work hard (a la
team racing scheduling) & the sailors went home wanting more next year :slight_smile:

Ralph

_____

From: Simon [mailto: simon@...] Sent: 07 November 2006 10:41 To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com Subject: [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

Ralph, FWIW, i think this is a brilliant idea, though i guess for the
olypics you would need to have a fairly large number of initial starters.

Simon SUGmaster

--- In sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com s.com,
"Ralph Tingle" <rat@ wrote:

Hi Geoff I am developing a new (to me anyway) format of racing, with a
view to making our sport more spectator friendly & protecting our
place in the Olympics

Racing is over short 15mins races in starts of approx 10 boats.
Depending on numbers, there are heats, qtr finals, semis & Finals
(similar to Olympic 100 metres) Scores are not carried forward from
one round to the next so the objective is simply to qualify for the
next round. The format also ensures that everyone on the start line
for the Gold Final has a chance of winning medals but at the same
time, those who do not 'qualify' still keep racing so there are
'finals' for
1st - 10th, 11th - 20th etc

The scoring system also need to be easier to understand
- Each round consists of a series of 3 races
- Race points are awarded to the top 50% of the fleet eg 1st = 5
points, 2nd = 4 etc
- No discards
- Top 50% go through up to next round, bottom 50% go 'down' to minor
fleets

I have chosen high points (similar to motor racing) so that it follows
more conventional sporting scoring ie win & gain points Also boats
that have a bad race do not lose too much ground & can still come back
& qualify for the next round

The SW issue has been that with 3 races, it is possible (as per my
sample file) for boats to tie on points When this tie means that one
boats qualifies for the next round & the other doesn't, it only seems
fair that we should look at their non-scoring races.

The first event was this Saturday with the RS fleets 200, Vareo, 300,
400 & 800 (we had 8 starts) We did not have a single race grand final
due to time & a requirement to run the vent for multiple classes

I am waiting for feedback but initial comments were FANTASTIC!!

WRT CHIPS I appreciate that it will work but I suspect working out
that a boat has qualified with 147.4 points & the other with 155.1
will be too much for spectators. So no - you have not missed something
subtle, just me with nothing better to do with my time :wink:

Ralph

_____

From: Geoff Burrell [mailto: geoff.burrell@] Sent: 06 November 2006
21:30 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Ralph

Yes CHIPS would have resolved it but of course so too would
conventional low point scoring.

Clearly if you decide to make it such that all positions below third
score zero then there is no way of distinguishing between a 4th and a
5th in any one race.

The CHIPS scores for your current 5th & 6th rankings are:

5th - 66, 81.4, 66 = 147.4

6th - 81.4, 73.4, 58.4 = 155.1

So your 6th beats your 5th with the higher score.

I fear that I must be missing something subtle since I feel sure you
will know that LPS gives the right order too??

Geoff.

-----Original Message----- From: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
sailwave%40yahoogroups.com s.com [mailto: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
sailwave%40yahoogroups.com s.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle Sent: 06
November
2006 18:39 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Geoff

Would CHIPS have resolved the RS 300 trial results in the attached?

'Fair play' suggests that 5th & 6th should be reversed as both had a
3rd place but the 6th boat had a 4th & should have been 5th under the
spirit of App A8

Ralph

_____

From: Geoff Burrell [mailto: geoff.burrell@] Sent: 06 November 2006
17:43 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Go for CHIPS high point scoring which gives fair results for any
number of boats and resolves ties.
(Well it is very rare for CHIPS to fail to do so).

Geoff

-----Original Message----- From: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
sailwave%40yahoogroups.com s.com [mailto: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
sailwave%40yahoogroups.com s.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle Sent: 06
November
2006 17:16 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

".... all the rest should get 1 point".

I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when
boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a
problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank
(position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points
systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last weekend

Ralph

_____

From: mboelgen [mailto: martin@] Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50 To:
sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com s.com Subject:
[sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like "We use this scoring system, can SW do it
for us?"

I could be high point or low point, or what ever... I've been thinking
that if I had the possibility to combine "Custom high/low point
defined by a list of points" and "Custom high/low point defined by a
formula", I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a "Custom high/low point list of formulas". Like this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points more
than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2 points more
than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets ( p+(s+1))and
so on.

If it wasn't for the first result, I could have used "Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points" like this: 12.25,12 Since the next
is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway... That's why I want "Custom high/low
point list of formulas", then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)
and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the "Custom high/low point list of
formulas" coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats...

I'm not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are... So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more "standard" scorings...

regards, Martin

20

Only acceptable for a high level competition… In the Olympics, competitors should accept to go back home after one day of competition.

On a much lower level, competitor want to get racing for their money, so you should never drop them underway

Philippe De Troy

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Simon

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 5:54 PM

Subject: [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

OK Ralph, got my imagination going! With your 16 boats what about a
“Strictly Come Dancing” format? Everyone starts race 1 with the last 2
finishers dropping out, race follows race with the last 2 dropping out
til you end up with 6 entries for the medal race.

Simon

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , “Ralph Tingle” <rat@… wrote:

Hi Simon Yes- the full blown Sprint format is best for a single class
with largish numbers over at least a weekend This Saturday, we ran it
(with some mods) where the biggest class was 16 boats! The smallest
start was RS400 with 6 boats in each semi

We ran a semis/finals for some classes & single series for classes
with 6 entries!

The SIs are on Rutlandsc. co. uk site. They are a bit messy due to
major last minute changes requested by the class association but in
the end, the briefing worked, our race team had to work hard (a la
team racing scheduling) & the sailors went home wanting more next year :slight_smile:

Ralph

From: Simon [mailto: simon@…] Sent: 07 November 2006 10:41 To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

Ralph, FWIW, i think this is a brilliant idea, though i guess for the
olypics you would need to have a fairly large number of initial starters.

Simon SUGmaster

— In sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com,
“Ralph Tingle” <rat@ wrote:

Hi Geoff I am developing a new (to me anyway) format of racing, with a
view to making our sport more spectator friendly & protecting our
place in the Olympics

Racing is over short 15mins races in starts of approx 10 boats.
Depending on numbers, there are heats, qtr finals, semis & Finals
(similar to Olympic 100 metres) Scores are not carried forward from
one round to the next so the objective is simply to qualify for the
next round. The format also ensures that everyone on the start line
for the Gold Final has a chance of winning medals but at the same
time, those who do not ‘qualify’ still keep racing so there are
‘finals’ for
1st - 10th, 11th - 20th etc

The scoring system also need to be easier to understand

  • Each round consists of a series of 3 races

  • Race points are awarded to the top 50% of the fleet eg 1st = 5
    points, 2nd = 4 etc

  • No discards

    • Top 50% go through up to next round, bottom 50% go ‘down’ to minor
      fleets

    I have chosen high points (similar to motor racing) so that it follows
    more conventional sporting scoring ie win & gain points Also boats
    that have a bad race do not lose too much ground & can still come back
    & qualify for the next round

    The SW issue has been that with 3 races, it is possible (as per my
    sample file) for boats to tie on points When this tie means that one
    boats qualifies for the next round & the other doesn’t, it only seems
    fair that we should look at their non-scoring races.

    The first event was this Saturday with the RS fleets 200, Vareo, 300,
    400 & 800 (we had 8 starts) We did not have a single race grand final
    due to time & a requirement to run the vent for multiple classes

    I am waiting for feedback but initial comments were FANTASTIC!!

    WRT CHIPS I appreciate that it will work but I suspect working out
    that a boat has qualified with 147.4 points & the other with 155.1
    will be too much for spectators. So no - you have not missed something
    subtle, just me with nothing better to do with my time :wink:

Ralph

From: Geoff Burrell [mailto: geoff.burrell@] Sent: 06 November 2006
21:30 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Ralph

Yes CHIPS would have resolved it but of course so too would
conventional low point scoring.

Clearly if you decide to make it such that all positions below third
score zero then there is no way of distinguishing between a 4th and a
5th in any one race.

The CHIPS scores for your current 5th & 6th rankings are:

5th - 66, 81.4, 66 = 147.4

6th - 81.4, 73.4, 58.4 = 155.1

So your 6th beats your 5th with the higher score.

I fear that I must be missing something subtle since I feel sure you
will know that LPS gives the right order too??

Geoff.

-----Original Message----- From: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com [mailto: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle Sent: 06
November
2006 18:39 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Geoff

Would CHIPS have resolved the RS 300 trial results in the attached?

‘Fair play’ suggests that 5th & 6th should be reversed as both had a
3rd place but the 6th boat had a 4th & should have been 5th under the
spirit of App A8

Ralph

From: Geoff Burrell [mailto: geoff.burrell@] Sent: 06 November 2006
17:43 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Go for CHIPS high point scoring which gives fair results for any
number of boats and resolves ties.
(Well it is very rare for CHIPS to fail to do so).

Geoff

-----Original Message----- From: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com [mailto: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle Sent: 06
November
2006 17:16 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

“… all the rest should get 1 point”.

I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when
boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a
problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank
(position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points
systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last weekend

Ralph

From: mboelgen [mailto: martin@] Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50 To:
sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com Subject:
[sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like “We use this scoring system, can SW do it
for us?”

I could be high point or low point, or what ever… I’ve been thinking
that if I had the possibility to combine “Custom high/low point
defined by a list of points” and “Custom high/low point defined by a
formula”, I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a “Custom high/low point list of formulas”. Like this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points more
than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2 points more
than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets ( p+(s+1))and
so on.

If it wasn’t for the first result, I could have used “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” like this: 12.25,12 Since the next
is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway… That’s why I want “Custom high/low
point list of formulas”, then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)
and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the “Custom high/low point list of
formulas” coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats…

I’m not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are… So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more “standard” scorings…

regards, Martin