Scoring systems - Generalisation?

One of the issues in the back of my mind is that ISAF are keen to eliminate discards for obvious spectator-friendly reasons.

If this happens, then a letter score become VERY penalising although some may say so what!

Also, in the sprint format where there are only 3 races in a series, or perhaps 5 in a week long regatta, a letter or bad score would virtually consign the competitor to the minor leagues.

My idea of points being awarded to the top 50% only, means that the bottom 50% don’t fall too far behind, especially the ones who are normally in the top group but suffer from unusual/very variable conditions - Qingdao for example :frowning:

Thanks for your input

Ralph

···

From: Geoff Burrell [mailto:geoff.burrell@btinternet.com]
Sent: 07 November 2006 16:02
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Sprint Racing

Hi Ralph

Yes indeed this is a good event format.

It would seem to me that you need to be able to distinguish between scores further down the fleet, which of course you cannot do if the bottom half are scored with nil points. This is of course the basis of previous suggestions that have been offered by others based upon small decimals (0.0001 etc).

There is no reason why you could not score all positions, first to last, so that you can decide who comes in the top 50% since there is then no such thing as a non-scoring race.

The scheme you decide to use may depend on whether the number of boats varies race-to-race within each round. If not then it is easy since you can score high points with the simplest of all methods with the winner scoring s points. But because this is simple linear scoring you can make it whatever you like (i.e… winner scores s + anything) and you would still get the same winner and qualifiers.

And if the number of boats varies race-to-race within the round then you need to make sure the score for the winner is at least equal to the number of competitors in the round. While this is very simple and will work fine this is not quite as fair as a scoring system like CHIPS which in effect makes smallish adjustments for the number of boats and always restricts the scores for finishers to be between 100 and 10. Ties are usually resolved when the number of boats varies but they are not necessarily resolved if the number of boats stays unchanged.

But for the greatest simplicity and to make it understandable to spectators and competitors alike, and to allow for the fact that different classes will have different numbers of competitors, why not apply the following simple method:

For all fleets, irrespective of how many boats take part, then score -

1st = 100

2nd = 99

3rd = 98

etc

Will not this always work (provided of course that the number of boats in a race is less than 100)? Or if you don’t like the idea of large numbers you just need to make the score for a first is slightly greater than the max number of boats in the biggest fleet. Simple to do and simple to understand!

Just an idea….

Geoff

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 07 November 2006 10:26
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Sprint Racing

Hi Geoff

I am developing a new (to me anyway) format of racing, with a view to making our sport more spectator friendly & protecting our place in the Olympics

Racing is over short 15mins races in starts of approx 10 boats.

Depending on numbers, there are heats, qtr finals, semis & Finals (similar to Olympic 100 metres)

Scores are not carried forward from one round to the next so the objective is simply to qualify for the next round.

The format also ensures that everyone on the start line for the Gold Final has a chance of winning medals but at the same time, those who do not ‘qualify’ still keep racing so there are ‘finals’ for 1st - 10th, 11th - 20th etc

The scoring system also need to be easier to understand

  • Each round consists of a series of 3 races

  • Race points are awarded to the top 50% of the fleet eg 1st = 5 points, 2nd = 4 etc

  • No discards

  • Top 50% go through up to next round, bottom 50% go ‘down’ to minor fleets

I have chosen high points (similar to motor racing) so that it follows more conventional sporting scoring ie win & gain points

Also boats that have a bad race do not lose too much ground & can still come back & qualify for the next round

The SW issue has been that with 3 races, it is possible (as per my sample file) for boats to tie on points

When this tie means that one boats qualifies for the next round & the other doesn’t, it only seems fair that we should look at their non-scoring races.

The first event was this Saturday with the RS fleets 200, Vareo, 300, 400 & 800 (we had 8 starts)

We did not have a single race grand final due to time & a requirement to run the vent for multiple classes

I am waiting for feedback but initial comments were FANTASTIC!!

WRT CHIPS

I appreciate that it will work but I suspect working out that a boat has qualified with 147.4 points & the other with 155.1 will be too much for spectators.

So no - you have not missed something subtle, just me with nothing better to do with my time :wink:

Ralph


From: Geoff Burrell [mailto:geoff.burrell@btinternet.com]
Sent: 06 November 2006 21:30
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Ralph

Yes CHIPS would have resolved it but of course so too would conventional low point scoring.

Clearly if you decide to make it such that all positions below third score zero then there is no way of distinguishing between a 4th and a 5th in any one race.

The CHIPS scores for your current 5th & 6th rankings are:

5th - 66, 81.4, 66 = 147.4

6th – 81.4, 73.4, 58.4 = 155.1

So your 6th beats your 5th with the higher score.

I fear that I must be missing something subtle since I feel sure you will know that LPS gives the right order too??

Geoff.

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 06 November 2006 18:39
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Geoff

Would CHIPS have resolved the RS 300 trial results in the attached?

‘Fair play’ suggests that 5th & 6th should be reversed as both had a 3rd place but the 6th boat had a 4th & should have been 5th under the spirit of App A8

Ralph


From: Geoff Burrell [mailto:geoff.burrell@btinternet.com]
Sent: 06 November 2006 17:43
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Go for CHIPS high point scoring which gives fair results for any number of boats and resolves ties. (Well it is very rare for CHIPS to fail to do so).

Geoff

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: 06 November 2006 17:16
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

“…all the rest should get 1 point”.

I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank (position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last weekend

Ralph


From: mboelgen [mailto:martin@seilforening.no]
Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like “We use this scoring system, can SW do it
for us?”

I could be high point or low point, or what ever… I’ve been
thinking that if I had the possibility to combine “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” and “Custom high/low point defined
by a formula”, I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a “Custom high/low point list of formulas”. Like
this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points
more than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2
points more than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets (
p+(s+1))and so on.

If it wasn’t for the first result, I could have used “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” like this: 12.25,12
Since the next is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway… That’s why I want “Custom high/low
point list of formulas”, then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)
and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the “Custom high/low point list of
formulas” coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats…

I’m not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are… So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more “standard” scorings…

regards,
Martin

Hi Simon

Philippe is right that the Olympics would probably be the only event where those not qualifying might stop racing.

Not sure however if “much lower level” is correct.

A top 10 ranked Finn sailor at the club commented on a Spa regatta where the top ten ISAF ranked boats went straight into the Finals.

He noted that when he arrived to compete in the finals, the atmosphere in the boat park was like a graveyard due to a large number of competitors who were going home, having not qualified.

I think the key is to develop a format which can be sailed at local level as well as the very top

Even the new Appendix LE has now recognised that boats that do not qualify for the top ten finals race can still compete in an extra race.

If you come across Jonathan Lewis, he competed at the event & was party to the format planning.

Will be interesting to hear what he thought as a competitor

Re a “Strictly Come Dancing” format, the thought of old Brucie commentating on a drop out format with phrases like “Good race, good race” and asking the crowd “What do points mean…??” just makes me cringe, vomit or laugh, can’t make my mind up.

Afraid to say that I am an X Factor man when not at an event.

Who is the saddest on a Saturday night - you or me ;-)))

Ralph

···

From: Philippe DE TROY [mailto:webmanager@ffyb.be]
Sent: 07 November 2006 18:08
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

Only acceptable for a high level competition… In the Olympics, competitors should accept to go back home after one day of competition.

On a much lower level, competitor want to get racing for their money, so you should never drop them underway

Philippe De Troy

----- Original Message -----

From: Simon

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 5:54 PM

Subject: [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

OK Ralph, got my imagination going! With your 16 boats what about a
“Strictly Come Dancing” format? Everyone starts race 1 with the last 2
finishers dropping out, race follows race with the last 2 dropping out
til you end up with 6 entries for the medal race.

Simon

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , “Ralph Tingle” <rat@… wrote:

Hi Simon Yes- the full blown Sprint format is best for a single class
with largish numbers over at least a weekend This Saturday, we ran it
(with some mods) where the biggest class was 16 boats! The smallest
start was RS400 with 6 boats in each semi

We ran a semis/finals for some classes & single series for classes
with 6 entries!

The SIs are on Rutlandsc. co. uk site. They are a bit messy due to
major last minute changes requested by the class association but in
the end, the briefing worked, our race team had to work hard (a la
team racing scheduling) & the sailors went home wanting more next year :slight_smile:

Ralph


From: Simon [mailto: simon@…] Sent: 07 November 2006 10:41 To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

Ralph, FWIW, i think this is a brilliant idea, though i guess for the
olypics you would need to have a fairly large number of initial starters.

Simon SUGmaster

— In sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com,
“Ralph Tingle” <rat@ wrote:

Hi Geoff I am developing a new (to me anyway) format of racing, with a
view to making our sport more spectator friendly & protecting our
place in the Olympics

Racing is over short 15mins races in starts of approx 10 boats.
Depending on numbers, there are heats, qtr finals, semis & Finals
(similar to Olympic 100 metres) Scores are not carried forward from
one round to the next so the objective is simply to qualify for the
next round. The format also ensures that everyone on the start line
for the Gold Final has a chance of winning medals but at the same
time, those who do not ‘qualify’ still keep racing so there are
‘finals’ for
1st - 10th, 11th - 20th etc

The scoring system also need to be easier to understand

  • Each round consists of a series of 3 races

  • Race points are awarded to the top 50% of the fleet eg 1st = 5
    points, 2nd = 4 etc

  • No discards

    • Top 50% go through up to next round, bottom 50% go ‘down’ to minor
      fleets

    I have chosen high points (similar to motor racing) so that it follows
    more conventional sporting scoring ie win & gain points Also boats
    that have a bad race do not lose too much ground & can still come back
    & qualify for the next round

    The SW issue has been that with 3 races, it is possible (as per my
    sample file) for boats to tie on points When this tie means that one
    boats qualifies for the next round & the other doesn’t, it only seems
    fair that we should look at their non-scoring races.

    The first event was this Saturday with the RS fleets 200, Vareo, 300,
    400 & 800 (we had 8 starts) We did not have a single race grand final
    due to time & a requirement to run the vent for multiple classes

    I am waiting for feedback but initial comments were FANTASTIC!!

    WRT CHIPS I appreciate that it will work but I suspect working out
    that a boat has qualified with 147.4 points & the other with 155.1
    will be too much for spectators. So no - you have not missed something
    subtle, just me with nothing better to do with my time :wink:

Ralph


From: Geoff Burrell [mailto: geoff.burrell@] Sent: 06 November 2006
21:30 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Ralph

Yes CHIPS would have resolved it but of course so too would
conventional low point scoring.

Clearly if you decide to make it such that all positions below third
score zero then there is no way of distinguishing between a 4th and a
5th in any one race.

The CHIPS scores for your current 5th & 6th rankings are:

5th - 66, 81.4, 66 = 147.4

6th - 81.4, 73.4, 58.4 = 155.1

So your 6th beats your 5th with the higher score.

I fear that I must be missing something subtle since I feel sure you
will know that LPS gives the right order too??

Geoff.

-----Original Message----- From: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com [mailto: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle Sent: 06
November
2006 18:39 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Geoff

Would CHIPS have resolved the RS 300 trial results in the attached?

‘Fair play’ suggests that 5th & 6th should be reversed as both had a
3rd place but the 6th boat had a 4th & should have been 5th under the
spirit of App A8

Ralph


From: Geoff Burrell [mailto: geoff.burrell@] Sent: 06 November 2006
17:43 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Go for CHIPS high point scoring which gives fair results for any
number of boats and resolves ties.
(Well it is very rare for CHIPS to fail to do so).

Geoff

-----Original Message----- From: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com [mailto: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle Sent: 06
November
2006 17:16 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

“… all the rest should get 1 point”.

I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when
boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a
problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank
(position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points
systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last weekend

Ralph


From: mboelgen [mailto: martin@] Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50 To:
sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com Subject:
[sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like “We use this scoring system, can SW do it
for us?”

I could be high point or low point, or what ever… I’ve been thinking
that if I had the possibility to combine “Custom high/low point
defined by a list of points” and “Custom high/low point defined by a
formula”, I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a “Custom high/low point list of formulas”. Like this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points more
than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2 points more
than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets ( p+(s+1))and
so on.

If it wasn’t for the first result, I could have used “Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points” like this: 12.25,12 Since the next
is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway… That’s why I want “Custom high/low
point list of formulas”, then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)
and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the “Custom high/low point list of
formulas” coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats…

I’m not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are… So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more “standard” scorings…

regards, Martin

Moreover, dropping the slowest crews dpn’t help them going faster next time, while the best crew are still lerning by sailing and sailing again…

Even the World Sailing games should be considered as a preparation for the Olympics, so everyone should have the same opportunities.

Perhaps for World Championships or Continental Championships, some crews could be dropped, but certainly not before half the racing period is gone…

Philippe

···

----- Original Message -----

From:
Ralph Tingle

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 8:35 PM

Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

Hi Simon

Philippe is right that the Olympics would probably be the only event where those not qualifying might stop racing.

Not sure however if “much lower level” is correct.

A top 10 ranked Finn sailor at the club commented on a Spa regatta where the top ten ISAF ranked boats went straight into the Finals.

He noted that when he arrived to compete in the finals, the atmosphere in the boat park was like a graveyard due to a large number of competitors who were going home, having not qualified.

I think the key is to develop a format which can be sailed at local level as well as the very top

Even the new Appendix LE has now recognised that boats that do not qualify for the top ten finals race can still compete in an extra race.

If you come across Jonathan Lewis, he competed at the event & was party to the format planning.

Will be interesting to hear what he thought as a competitor

Re a “Strictly Come Dancing” format, the thought of old Brucie commentating on a drop out format with phrases like “Good race, good race” and asking the crowd “What do points mean…??” just makes me cringe, vomit or laugh, can’t make my mind up.

Afraid to say that I am an X Factor man when not at an event.

Who is the saddest on a Saturday night - you or me ;-)))

Ralph


From: Philippe DE TROY [mailto:webmanager@ffyb.be]
Sent: 07 November 2006 18:08
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

Only acceptable for a high level competition. … In the Olympics, competitors should accept to go back home after one day of competition.

On a much lower level, competitor want to get racing for their money, so you should never drop them underway

Philippe De Troy

----- Original Message -----

From: Simon

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006 5:54 PM

Subject: [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

OK Ralph, got my imagination going! With your 16 boats what about a
"Strictly Come Dancing" format? Everyone starts race 1 with the last 2
finishers dropping out, race follows race with the last 2 dropping out
til you end up with 6 entries for the medal race.

Simon

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com , “Ralph Tingle” <rat@… wrote:

Hi Simon Yes- the full blown Sprint format is best for a single class
with largish numbers over at least a weekend This Saturday, we ran it
(with some mods) where the biggest class was 16 boats! The smallest
start was RS400 with 6 boats in each semi

We ran a semis/finals for some classes & single series for classes

with 6 entries!

The SIs are on Rutlandsc. co. uk site. They are a bit messy due to
major last minute changes requested by the class association but in
the end, the briefing worked, our race team had to work hard (a la
team racing scheduling) & the sailors went home wanting more next year :-)

Ralph


From: Simon [mailto: simon@...] Sent: 07 November 2006 10:41 To:

sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

Ralph, FWIW, i think this is a brilliant idea, though i guess for the
olypics you would need to have a fairly large number of initial starters.

Simon SUGmaster

--- In sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogro    ups.com s.com,

“Ralph Tingle” <rat@ wrote:

Hi Geoff I am developing a new (to me anyway) format of racing, with a
view to making our sport more spectator friendly & protecting our
place in the Olympics

Racing is over short 15mins races in starts of approx 10 boats.
Depending on numbers, there are heats, qtr finals, semis & Finals
(similar to Olympic 100 metres) Scores are not carried forward from
one round to the next so the objective is simply to qualify for the
next round. The format also ensures that everyone on the start line
for the Gold Final has a chance of winning medals but at the same
time, those who do not 'qualify' still keep racing so there are

‘finals’ for
1st - 10th, 11th - 20th etc

The scoring system also need to be easier to understand
- Each round consists of a series of 3 races
- Race points are awarded to the top 50% of the fleet eg 1st = 5

points, 2nd = 4 etc

  • No discards

    • Top 50% go through up to next round, bottom 50% go ‘down’ to minor
      fleets

    I have chosen high points (similar to motor racing) so that it follows
    more conventional sporting scoring ie win & gain points Also boats
    that have a bad race do not lose too much ground & can still come back
    & qualify for the next round

    The SW issue has been that with 3 races, it is possible (as per my
    sample file) for boats to tie on points When this tie means that one
    boats qualifies for the next round & the other doesn’t, it only seems
    fair that we should look at their non-scoring races.

    The first event was this Saturday with the RS fleets 200, Vareo, 300,
    400 & 800 (we had 8 starts) We did not have a single race grand final
    due to time & a requirement to run the vent for multiple classes

    I am waiting for feedback but initial comments were FANTASTIC!!

    WRT CHIPS I appreciate that it will work but I suspect working out
    that a boat has qualified with 147.4 points & the other with 155.1
    will be too much for spectators. So no - you have not missed something
    subtle, just me with nothing better to do with my time :wink:

Ralph


From: Geoff Burrell [mailto: geoff.burrell@] Sent: 06 November 2006
21:30 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Ralph

Yes CHIPS would have resolved it but of course so too would
conventional low point scoring.

Clearly if you decide to make it such that all positions below third
score zero then there is no way of distinguishing between a 4th and a

5th in any one race.

The CHIPS scores for your current 5th & 6th rankings are:

5th - 66, 81.4, 66 = 147.4

6th - 81.4, 73.4, 58.4 = 155.1

So your 6th beats your 5th with the higher score.

I fear that I must be missing something subtle since I feel sure you
will know that LPS gives the right order too??

Geoff.

-----Original Message----- From: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:

sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com [mailto: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle Sent: 06
November
2006 18:39 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi Geoff

Would CHIPS have resolved the RS 300 trial results in the attached?

'Fair play' suggests that 5th & 6th should be reversed as both had a
3rd place but the 6th boat had a 4th & should have been 5th under the

spirit of App A8

Ralph


From: Geoff Burrell [mailto: geoff.burrell@] Sent: 06 November 2006
17:43 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Go for CHIPS high point scoring which gives fair results for any
number of boats and resolves ties.
(Well it is very rare for CHIPS to fail to do so).

Geoff

-----Original Message----- From: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:

sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com [mailto: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
sailwave%40yahoogro ups.com s.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle Sent: 06
November
2006 17:16 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

".... all the rest should get 1 point".

I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when
boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a
problem with tie breaks.

This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank

(position in a race).

Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points

systems

Colin

If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last weekend

Ralph


From: mboelgen [mailto: martin@] Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50 To:
sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com s.com Subject:
[sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

Hi, Colin!

I often have questions like "We use this scoring system, can SW do it

for us?"

I could be high point or low point, or what ever... I've been thinking
that if I had the possibility to combine "Custom high/low point
defined by a list of points" and "Custom high/low point defined by a
formula", I could have done MOST variations!

Actually more like a "Custom high/low point list of formulas". Like this:

One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points more
than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2 points more
than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets ( p+(s+1))and

so on.

If it wasn't for the first result, I could have used "Custom high/low
point defined by a list of points" like this: 12.25,12 Since the next
is supposed to be -1.

BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
would not be correct anyway... That's why I want "Custom high/low
point list of formulas", then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)

and thats it!

Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the "Custom high/low point list of
formulas" coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats...

I'm not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are... So if
I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
clubs should use more "standard" scorings...

regards, Martin

Ralph’s solution works provided the “interesting
decision” of the Protest Committee did not also require that the boat
that finished last be moved to second to last.

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2006
12:56 PM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Redress
Point Adjustment

Hi Terry

Have a look at the scoring code for Z flag
penalty (ZFP)

Rule 44.3 © deals with this type of
penalty.

You can probably calculate the required
percentage which is equivalent to 1 place.

Re the decision of the protest committee,
can they penalise by one place for hitting marks?

Have a look at Rule 64.1 (a) which
suggests that the penalty can only be DSQ, unless you have written something
special into your SIs

I am not a judge so happy to be corrected
on this point

As you say, moving the boat from 2nd last
to last does not really matter in this situation but would have if he had
finished at the front of the fleet!

Ralph


From: Terry
[mailto:terry.home@home-it.com]
Sent: 06 November 2006 19:35
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Redress Point
Adjustment

We had a protest on the weekend as one of the boats hit a
marker and did not take the penalty turn. The Commitee decided to penalise the
boat in question by one position which took him from second last position to
last position anyhow.

I was wondering if SW makes provision for such an
adjustment or whether the only way I could show such an adjustment was by
altering his finishing time to be after that of the last boat? I would however
prefer for his correct finishing time to be reflected in the results and the
results to reflect that he was penalised, either by a time penalty (%) or
simply by a position penalty.

How is this supposed to be done?

Regards

Terry

The
following works and does not require that you redefine the meaning of rule 41.

If any part of a boat’s
hull, crew or equipment is

on the course side of the starting line during the

two minutes before her starting signal and she

is identified, the race committee will attempt

to broadcast her sail number over a loudspeaker

Failure to make a broadcast or to time it

accurately will not be grounds for a request for

redress. This changes rule 62.1(a).

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2006
3:05 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: Sprint
Racing

Hi Mike

The advantage of 10 boats on a short line
on a short course is that it reduces the necessity for a perfect
start.

There is virtually no favoured end &
boats need concentrate much more on tacking, gybing & mark rounding skills

I also have an SI which says

“For the purposes of Rule
41, the actions of the Race Committee on the Start boat, in helping the fleet
to achieve a fair start, will not be defined as ‘outside help’ or
provide grounds for redress”

This means that we talk (through a
megaphone) to competitors & if they are over the line well before the
start gun, we can tell them so that they can get back.

If they are over at the time of the start
signal, there is an SI which says they must go back round the ends (ie not
totally I flag rule)

I agree that this will not suit every
class/type of event but for those who want something different …

Ralph


From: Mike
Croker [mailto:mdcroker@which.net]
Sent: 07 November 2006 10:37
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sailwave] Re: Sprint
Racing

OK for events where start line rules observance is
strongly policed

(like motor racing) but not for the average open meeting scrummage,

IMHO :frowning:

— In sailwave@yahoogroups.com,
“Ralph Tingle” <rat@…> wrote:

Racing is over short 15mins races in starts of approx 10 boats.

Depending on numbers, there are heats, qtr finals, semis & Finals

(similar to Olympic 100 metres)

Ralph / Phillipe point taken. OK, this Strictly Come Sailing concept was the result of nearly 2 minutes consideration over how to run a 'sprint' event if there was only a small entry. My 6 year old nephew thought the concept was inspired, but he will agree to anything if there was the slightest hint there might be some chocolate in it at the end!

Having thought about it i have modified my concept and limited it to 10 entries. All competitors sail 7 races and no one goes home. Rough details are on the .txt file attached (I needed to maintain some formatting).

Re Strictly Come Dancing and who is the saddest on a Saturday night? My wife has no idea who you are, but i can tell you now who she would choose!

Clearly the end on the northern hemisphere sailing season is coming!

cheeeers.... Simon
SUG Master

Ralph Tingle wrote:

Strictly Come Sailing Concept.txt (1.16 KB)

···

Hi Simon
Philippe is right that the Olympics would probably be the only event where those not qualifying might stop racing.
Not sure however if "much lower level" is correct.
A top 10 ranked Finn sailor at the club commented on a Spa regatta where the top ten ISAF ranked boats went straight into the Finals.
He noted that when he arrived to compete in the finals, the atmosphere in the boat park was like a graveyard due to a large number of competitors who were going home, having not qualified.
I think the key is to develop a format which can be sailed at local level as well as the very top
Even the new Appendix LE has now recognised that boats that do not qualify for the top ten finals race can still compete in an extra race.
If you come across Jonathan Lewis, he competed at the event & was party to the format planning.
Will be interesting to hear what he thought as a competitor
Re a "Strictly Come Dancing" format, the thought of old Brucie commentating on a drop out format with phrases like "Good race, good race" and asking the crowd "What do points mean.....??" just makes me cringe, vomit or laugh, can't make my mind up.
Afraid to say that I am an X Factor man when not at an event.
Who is the saddest on a Saturday night - you or me ;-)))
Ralph
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* Philippe DE TROY [mailto:webmanager@ffyb.be]
*Sent:* 07 November 2006 18:08
*To:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com
*Subject:* Re: [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

Only acceptable for a high level competition... In the Olympics, competitors should accept to go back home after one day of competition. On a much lower level, competitor want to get racing for their money, so you should never drop them underway
Philippe De Troy

    ----- Original Message -----
    *From:* Simon <mailto:simon@smith.net>
    *To:* sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>
    *Sent:* Tuesday, November 07, 2006 5:54 PM
    *Subject:* [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

    OK Ralph, got my imagination going! With your 16 boats what about a
    "Strictly Come Dancing" format? Everyone starts race 1 with the last 2
    finishers dropping out, race follows race with the last 2 dropping out
    til you end up with 6 entries for the medal race.

    Simon

    --- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com>,
    "Ralph Tingle" <rat@... wrote:

    Hi Simon Yes- the full blown Sprint format is best for a single class
    with largish numbers over at least a weekend This Saturday, we ran it
    (with some mods) where the biggest class was 16 boats! The smallest
    start was RS400 with 6 boats in each semi

    We ran a semis/finals for some classes & single series for classes
    with 6 entries!

    The SIs are on Rutlandsc. co. uk site. They are a bit messy due to
    major last minute changes requested by the class association but in
    the end, the briefing worked, our race team had to work hard (a la
    team racing scheduling) & the sailors went home wanting more next
    year :slight_smile:

    Ralph

    _____

    From: Simon [mailto: simon@...] Sent: 07 November 2006 10:41 To:
    sailwave@yahoogroups.com <mailto:sailwave%40yahoogroups.com>
    Subject: [sailwave] Re: Sprint Racing

    Ralph, FWIW, i think this is a brilliant idea, though i guess for the
    olypics you would need to have a fairly large number of initial
    starters.

    Simon SUGmaster

    --- In sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com s.com,
    "Ralph Tingle" <rat@ wrote:

    Hi Geoff I am developing a new (to me anyway) format of racing, with a
    view to making our sport more spectator friendly & protecting our
    place in the Olympics

    Racing is over short 15mins races in starts of approx 10 boats.
    Depending on numbers, there are heats, qtr finals, semis & Finals
    (similar to Olympic 100 metres) Scores are not carried forward from
    one round to the next so the objective is simply to qualify for the
    next round. The format also ensures that everyone on the start line
    for the Gold Final has a chance of winning medals but at the same
    time, those who do not 'qualify' still keep racing so there are
    'finals' for
    1st - 10th, 11th - 20th etc

    The scoring system also need to be easier to understand
    - Each round consists of a series of 3 races
    - Race points are awarded to the top 50% of the fleet eg 1st = 5
    points, 2nd = 4 etc
    - No discards
    - Top 50% go through up to next round, bottom 50% go 'down' to minor
    fleets

    I have chosen high points (similar to motor racing) so that it follows
    more conventional sporting scoring ie win & gain points Also boats
    that have a bad race do not lose too much ground & can still come back
    & qualify for the next round

    The SW issue has been that with 3 races, it is possible (as per my
    sample file) for boats to tie on points When this tie means that one
    boats qualifies for the next round & the other doesn't, it only seems
    fair that we should look at their non-scoring races.

    The first event was this Saturday with the RS fleets 200, Vareo, 300,
    400 & 800 (we had 8 starts) We did not have a single race grand final
    due to time & a requirement to run the vent for multiple classes

    I am waiting for feedback but initial comments were FANTASTIC!!

    WRT CHIPS I appreciate that it will work but I suspect working out
    that a boat has qualified with 147.4 points & the other with 155.1
    will be too much for spectators. So no - you have not missed something
    subtle, just me with nothing better to do with my time :wink:

    Ralph

    _____

    From: Geoff Burrell [mailto: geoff.burrell@] Sent: 06 November 2006
    21:30 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
    s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

    Hi Ralph

    Yes CHIPS would have resolved it but of course so too would
    conventional low point scoring.

    Clearly if you decide to make it such that all positions below third
    score zero then there is no way of distinguishing between a 4th and a
    5th in any one race.

    The CHIPS scores for your current 5th & 6th rankings are:

    5th - 66, 81.4, 66 = 147.4

    6th - 81.4, 73.4, 58.4 = 155.1

    So your 6th beats your 5th with the higher score.

    I fear that I must be missing something subtle since I feel sure you
    will know that LPS gives the right order too??

    Geoff.

    -----Original Message----- From: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
    sailwave%40yahoogroups.com s.com [mailto: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
    sailwave%40yahoogroups.com s.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle Sent: 06
    November
    2006 18:39 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
    s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

    Hi Geoff

    Would CHIPS have resolved the RS 300 trial results in the attached?

    'Fair play' suggests that 5th & 6th should be reversed as both had a
    3rd place but the 6th boat had a 4th & should have been 5th under the
    spirit of App A8

    Ralph

    _____

    From: Geoff Burrell [mailto: geoff.burrell@] Sent: 06 November 2006
    17:43 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
    s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

    Go for CHIPS high point scoring which gives fair results for any
    number of boats and resolves ties.
    (Well it is very rare for CHIPS to fail to do so).

    Geoff

    -----Original Message----- From: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
    sailwave%40yahoogroups.com s.com [mailto: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto:
    sailwave%40yahoogroups.com s.com]On Behalf Of Ralph Tingle Sent: 06
    November
    2006 17:16 To: sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com
    s.com Subject: RE: [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

    ".... all the rest should get 1 point".

    I have been trying to master this recently with great success but when
    boats finish in different places & all get the same points, there is a
    problem with tie breaks.

    This is because App A & SW work on race scores not actual rank
    (position in a race).

    Not sure if this is a problem with other variations of special points
    systems

    Colin

    If you need any sample data, I have some results from this last
    weekend

    Ralph

    _____

    From: mboelgen [mailto: martin@] Sent: 06 November 2006 16:50 To:
    sailwave@yahoogroup <mailto: sailwave%40yahoogroups.com s.com Subject:
    [sailwave] Scoring systems - Generalisation?

    Hi, Colin!

    I often have questions like "We use this scoring system, can SW do it
    for us?"

    I could be high point or low point, or what ever... I've been thinking
    that if I had the possibility to combine "Custom high/low point
    defined by a list of points" and "Custom high/low point defined by a
    formula", I could have done MOST variations!

    Actually more like a "Custom high/low point list of formulas".
    Like this:

    One club has a highpoint system that gives first boat 2.25 points more
    than number of competitor ( p+(s+2.25)), the second gets 2 points more
    than the number of competitors (( p+(s+2)), third gets ( p+(s+1))and
    so on.

    If it wasn't for the first result, I could have used "Custom high/low
    point defined by a list of points" like this: 12.25,12 Since the next
    is supposed to be -1.

    BUT since this also depends on the number of boats in that race, it
    would not be correct anyway... That's why I want "Custom high/low
    point list of formulas", then it would have been: p+(s+2.25),p+(s+2)
    and thats it!

    Also there are some systems that says that only the first 8 (or so)
    boats should be scored (formula) points, and all the rest should get
    1 point. DNC=0 points. So, the "Custom high/low point list of
    formulas" coult be ended with a code (or anything) after n boats...

    I'm not sure why all kinds of systems are used, but they are... So if
    I could write expression lists, it would solve this. Or, pherhaps
    clubs should use more "standard" scorings...

    regards, Martin

--
______________________________________
Simon Smith
simon@smith.net
http://www.simon.smith.net/
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