Starting with Sailwave

Hi
I'm looking at introducing new race management software at Chipstead
sailing club and Sailwave appears to be the most popular.
I've downloaded the software and had a look at the help.

Does any one have a beginners guide or OODs help document. I'm hoping
not to spend too many late nights trialing the software.

We run various fleet and handicap series through out the year and we're
planning on starting properly from April 2009, but I want to practice
with this years results. Some fleets use high point others low point
scoring, we also run pursuit races.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Graham Field

The attached is still a work in progress, but it should help you get started.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

···

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: graham@fieldconsultancy.co.uk
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:09:26 +0000
Subject: [sailwave] Starting with Sailwave

Hi
I’m looking at introducing new race management software at Chipstead
sailing club and Sailwave appears to be the most popular.
I’ve downloaded the software and had a look at the help.

Does any one have a beginners guide or OODs help document. I’m hoping
not to spend too many late nights trialing the software.

We run various fleet and handicap series through out the year and we’re
planning on starting properly from April 2009, but I want to practice
with this years results. Some fleets use high point others low point
scoring, we also run pursuit races.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Graham Field


Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie. Learn Now

Mark, can i include this in the help file suitably
acknowledged. ANybody else out there with stuff I can use…?

COlin

Sailwave

Mark Townsend wrote:

···

s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com


sailwave@yahoogroups.com
graham@fieldconsultancy.co.uk

Hi

I’m looking at introducing new race management software at Chipstead

sailing club and Sailwave appears to be the most popular.

I’ve downloaded the software and had a look at the help.

Does any one have a beginners guide or OODs help document. I’m hoping

not to spend too many late nights trialing the software.

We run various fleet and handicap series through out the year and we’re

planning on starting properly from April 2009, but I want to practice

with this years results. Some fleets use high point others low point

scoring, we also run pursuit races.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Graham Field


Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from
Jamie. Learn Now


---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1766 - Release Date: 04/11/2008 08:26

[http://www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com)

</details>

Sure… I am revising the documnet for Version 2 and will send that once it is finished

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

···

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: colin@sailwave.com
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2008 20:10:51 +0000
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Starting with Sailwave

Mark, can i include this in the help file suitably acknowledged. ANybody else out there with stuff I can use…?

COlin
Sailwave

Mark Townsend wrote:

The attached is still a work in progress, but it should help you get started.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com


To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: graham@fieldconsultancy.co.uk
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:09:26 +0000
Subject: [sailwave] Starting with Sailwave

Hi
I’m looking at introducing new race management software at Chipstead
sailing club and Sailwave appears to be the most popular.
I’ve downloaded the software and had a look at the help.

Does any one have a beginners guide or OODs help document. I’m hoping
not to spend too many late nights trialing the software.

We run various fleet and handicap series through out the year and we’re
planning on starting properly from April 2009, but I want to practice
with this years results. Some fleets use high point others low point
scoring, we also run pursuit races.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Graham Field


Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie. Learn Now



---

No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - [http://www.avg.com](http://www.avg.com/)
Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.8.6/1766 - Release Date: 04/11/2008 08:26

See how Windows® connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life Click here

Mark

I’ve started working through the sailwave manual you kindly sent.

Do you know someone in the Reigate (Surrey) area who would be willing to help me get over the learning hurdle?

Thanks

Graham Field

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Townsend
Sent: 04 November 2008 13:42
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Starting with Sailwave

Hi
I’m looking at introducing new race management software at Chipstead
sailing club and Sailwave appears to be the most popular.
I’ve downloaded the software and had a look at the help.

Does any one have a beginners guide or OODs help document. I’m hoping
not to spend too many late nights trialing the software.

We run various fleet and handicap series through out the year and we’re
planning on starting properly from April 2009, but I want to practice
with this years results. Some fleets use high point others low point
scoring, we also run pursuit races.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Graham Field


Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie. Learn Now

The attached is still a work in progress, but it should help you get started.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com


To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: graham@fieldconsultancy.co.uk
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:09:26 +0000
Subject: [sailwave] Starting with Sailwave

Sorry… I don’t

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com

···

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: graham@fieldconsultancy.co.uk
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 14:19:13 +0000
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Starting with Sailwave

Mark

I’ve started working through the sailwave manual you kindly sent.

Do you know someone in the Reigate (Surrey) area who would be willing to help me get over the learning hurdle?

Thanks

Graham Field


From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Townsend
Sent: 04 November 2008 13:42
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Starting with Sailwave

Hi
I’m looking at introducing new race management software at Chipstead
sailing club and Sailwave appears to be the most popular.
I’ve downloaded the software and had a look at the help.

Does any one have a beginners guide or OODs help document. I’m hoping
not to spend too many late nights trialing the software.

We run various fleet and handicap series through out the year and we’re
planning on starting properly from April 2009, but I want to practice
with this years results. Some fleets use high point others low point
scoring, we also run pursuit races.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Graham Field


Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie. Learn Now

The attached is still a work in progress, but it should help you get started.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com


To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: graham@fieldconsultancy.co.uk
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:09:26 +0000
Subject: [sailwave] Starting with Sailwave


Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. Sign up today.

Graham,

We have been using Sailwave at Bewl for
about 10 years (I guess) and know a bit about it. Do give me a call if I
can be of help.

Richard Kingsnorth

Compass
Marquees Ltd

T
01622 851515

F
01622 859660

www.compass-marquees.co.uk

richard@compass-marquees.co.uk

Compass Marquees Limited is registered
in England and Wales.

Company No. 5411133.

Registered Office: East Oakdene, Headcorn, Kent.
TN27 9JF

VAT No. 725075541

-----Original
Message-----
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of
graham

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Sent: 17 November 2008 14:19
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Starting
with Sailwave

Mark

I’ve
started working through the sailwave manual you kindly sent.

Do you
know someone in the Reigate (Surrey) area who would be willing to help me
get over the learning hurdle?

Thanks

Graham
Field


From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
Mark Townsend
Sent: 04 November 2008 13:42
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Starting
with Sailwave

The attached is
still a work in progress, but it should help you get started.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com


To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

From: graham@fieldconsultancy.co.uk

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:09:26 +0000

Subject: [sailwave] Starting with Sailwave

Hi

I’m looking at introducing new race management software at Chipstead

sailing club and Sailwave appears to be the most popular.

I’ve downloaded the software and had a look at the help.

Does any one have a beginners guide or OODs help document. I’m hoping

not to spend too many late nights trialing the software.

We run various fleet and handicap series through out the year and we’re

planning on starting properly from April 2009, but I want to practice

with this years results. Some fleets use high point others low point

scoring, we also run pursuit races.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Graham Field


Want to do more with
Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie. Learn Now

Thanks for the offer Richard, we are investigating an alternative for the next month, but if that falls through, I’l give you a call.

thanks

Graham Field

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Sent: 24 November 2008 08:19
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject:
RE: [sailwave] Starting with Sailwave

Graham,

We have been using Sailwave at Bewl for about 10 years (I guess) and know a bit about it. Do give me a call if I can be of help.

Richard Kingsnorth

Compass Marquees Ltd

T 01622 851515

F 01622 859660

www.compass-marquees.co.uk

richard@compass-marquees.co.uk

Compass Marquees Limited is registered in England and Wales.

Company No. 5411133.

Registered Office: East Oakdene, Headcorn, Kent. TN27 9JF

VAT No. 725075541

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of graham
Sent: 17 November 2008 14:19
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Starting with Sailwave

Mark

I’ve started working through the sailwave manual you kindly sent.

Do you know someone in the Reigate (Surrey) area who would be willing to help me get over the learning hurdle?

Thanks

Graham Field


From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Townsend
Sent: 04 November 2008 13:42
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Starting with Sailwave

The attached is still a work in progress, but it should help you get started.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com


To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
From: graham@fieldconsultancy.co.uk
Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:09:26 +0000
Subject: [sailwave] Starting with Sailwave

Hi
I’m looking at introducing new race management software at Chipstead
sailing club and Sailwave appears to be the most popular.
I’ve downloaded the software and had a look at the help.

Does any one have a beginners guide or OODs help document. I’m hoping
not to spend too many late nights trialing the software.

We run various fleet and handicap series through out the year and we’re
planning on starting properly from April 2009, but I want to practice
with this years results. Some fleets use high point others low point
scoring, we also run pursuit races.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Graham Field


Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie. Learn Now

???

···

From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of graham
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008
4:19 AM
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Starting
with Sailwave

Thanks for the offer Richard, we are
investigating an alternative for the next month, but if that falls through, I’l
give you a call.

thanks

Graham Field


From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Richard
Sent: 24 November 2008 08:19
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Starting
with Sailwave

Graham,

We have been using Sailwave at Bewl for about 10 years (I guess)
and know a bit about it. Do give me a call if I can be of help.

Richard Kingsnorth

Compass Marquees Ltd

T 01622 851515

F 01622 859660

www.compass-marquees.co.uk

richard@compass-marquees.co.uk

Compass
Marquees Limited is registered in England
and Wales.

Company
No. 5411133.

Registered
Office: East Oakdene, Headcorn ,
Kent.
TN27 9JF

VAT
No. 725075541

-----Original
Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On
Behalf Of
graham
Sent: 17 November 2008 14:19
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Starting
with Sailwave

Mark

I’ve started working through the sailwave manual you kindly sent.

Do you know someone in the Reigate (Surrey) area
who would be willing to help me get over the learning hurdle?

Thanks

Graham Field


From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Mark Townsend
Sent: 04 November 2008 13:42
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Starting
with Sailwave

The attached is still a work in progress, but it
should help you get started.

Mark Townsend s_mark_townsend@hotmail.com


To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

From: graham@fieldconsultancy.co.uk

Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2008 23:09:26 +0000

Subject: [sailwave] Starting with Sailwave

Hi

I’m looking at introducing new race management software at Chipstead

sailing club and Sailwave appears to be the most popular.

I’ve downloaded the software and had a look at the help.

Does any one have a beginners guide or OODs help document. I’m hoping

not to spend too many late nights trialing the software.

We run various fleet and handicap series through out the year and we’re

planning on starting properly from April 2009, but I want to practice

with this years results. Some fleets use high
point others low point

scoring, we also run pursuit races.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks

Graham Field


Want to do more
with Windows Live? Learn “10 hidden secrets” from Jamie. Learn Now

__________ NOD32 3644 (20081126) Information __________

This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system.

http://www.eset.com

Why Chips 3 Fails By David Chesworth
I'm not here to discredit the system; I'm here to prove that the
system simply is not
fair
If you take a look at the Chips 3 table of points you will see what I
mean.
If you have 3 starters the first boat gets 90 points and the second
boat 77.5 that's a
12.5 points differences. However when it comes to 25 starter race the
point's gap is
3.7. So racing in small fleets gives the first place boat an
advantage over anyone else.
But when it comes to large fleets that advantage goes to the people
down the fleet.
If you look closely at the table the first place boat with starters
of 21 and 22 have the
same points. With 23 starters it changes but for 24 and 25 starters
it is the same
points.
Looking at this is it possible for the first boats points to be less
or equal to that of the
second place boats in very large fleets? Very possible.
This proves that the chips system has flaws, large fleets.
Working out you can beat your fellow competitors was impossible.
Firstly you
cannot predict how many people are going to race on any given race.
Secondly now
that chips has a heavy wind factor it means that the weather can play
a part in the
points ultimately the overall results.
The skill factor of sailing has been taken out and it leaves your
results in the hands of
others.
If you want to change the results system for your club away from
chips then go ahead
and email your club telling them.
Page 9
All about CHIPS.doc Geoff Burrell
8th February 2007
CHIPS 3 - TABLE OF POINTS
Number of Starters (N)
3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
1 90 91.5 92.7 93.8 94.8 95.5 96.2 96.8 97.3 97.7 98 98.3 98.6 98.8
99 99.1 99.3 99.4 99.5 99.5 99.6 99.7 99.7
2 77.5 80 82.1 83.9 85.5 86.9 88.1 89.1 90.1 90.9 91.6 92.2 92.8 93.3
93.7 94.1 94.5 94.8 95.1 95.3 95.6 95.8 96
3 65 68.5 71.4 74 76.2 78.2 79.9 81.5 82.8 84.1 85.2 86.1 87 87.8
88.5 89.1 89.7 90.2 90.7 91.1 91.5 91.9 92.2
4 57 60.7 64 66.9 69.5 71.8 73.8 75.6 77.3 78.7 80 81.2 82.3 83.2
84.1 84.9 85.7 86.3 86.9 87.5 88 88.5
5 50.1 54.1 57.7 60.8 63.7 66.2 68.4 70.5 72.3 73.9 75.4 76.8 78 79.1
80.2 81.1 82 82.7 83.5 84.2 84.8
6 44.2 48.4 52.2 55.5 58.5 61.2 63.7 65.9 67.8 69.6 71.3 72.8 74.1
75.4 76.5 77.6 78.5 79.4 80.3 81
7 39.1 43.5 47.4 50.9 54 56.9 59.4 61.7 63.9 65.8 67.5 69.1 70.6 72
73.2 74.4 75.4 76.4 77.3
8 34.8 39.3 43.2 46.8 50.1 53 55.7 58.1 60.3 62.3 64.1 65.8 67.4 68.8
70.2 71.4 72.5 73.6
9 31.1 35.6 39.6 43.3 46.6 49.6 52.3 54.8 57.1 59.1 61.1 62.8 64.5 66
67.3 68.6 69.8
10 27.9 32.4 36.5 40.1 43.5 46.5 49.3 51.8 54.1 56.3 58.3 60.1 61.8
63.3 64.8 66.1
11 25.2 29.7 33.7 37.4 40.7 43.8 46.6 49.2 51.5 53.7 55.7 57.6 59.3
60.9 62.4
12 22.9 27.3 31.3 34.9 38.3 41.3 44.2 46.7 49.1 51.3 53.4 55.2 57 58.6
13 20.8 25.2 29.1 32.8 36.1 39.2 42 44.6 46.9 49.2 51.2 53.1 54.9
14 19.1 23.4 27.3 30.9 34.2 37.2 40 42.6 45 47.2 49.2 51.2
15 17.6 21.8 25.6 29.2 32.4 35.4 38.2 40.8 43.2 45.4 47.4
16 16.3 20.4 24.2 27.6 30.9 33.8 36.6 39.1 41.5 43.7
17 15.1 19.2 22.9 26.3 29.4 32.4 35.1 37.6 40
18 14.2 18.1 21.7 25.1 28.2 31.1 33.7 36.2
19 13.3 17.2 20.7 24 27 29.9 32.5
20 12.6 16.3 19.8 23 26 28.8
21 11.9 15.6 19 22.1 25
22 11.4 14.9 18.2 21.3
23 10.9 14.3 17.5
24 10.5 13.8
Position (P)
25 10.1
RTD 52.6 45.5 39.4 34.2 29.9 26.1 23 20.3 18 16.1 14.4 13 11.8 10.8
9.9 9.2 8.6 8 7.6 7.2 6.9 6.6 6.3

OK - I'll bite :~

--- In sailwave@yahoogroups.com, "david440549" <david.chesworth@...>
wrote:

But when it comes to large fleets that advantage goes to the people
down the fleet.

AFAIK, CHIPS rewards points for the number of people you beat, not
just how near the front you are - seems reasonable to me, but
obviously not to you!

The skill factor of sailing has been taken out and it leaves your
results in the hands of others.

What, like whether you beat the other boats in any particular race?!?
I think you are confusing race results and series results - IMHO the
latter always has been a bit of a lottery - CHIPS just juggles the
odds a bit!

YMMV, of course.

Mike Croker
Lancing SC

david440549 wrote:

Why Chips 3 Fails By David Chesworth
I'm not here to discredit the system; I'm here to prove that the
system simply is not fair

It sounds to me exactly like you are trying to discredit it. You haven't
proven its not fair.

If you take a look at the Chips 3 table of points you will see what I
mean.
If you have 3 starters the first boat gets 90 points and the second
boat 77.5 that's a
12.5 points differences. However when it comes to 25 starter race the
point's gap is
3.7. So racing in small fleets gives the first place boat an
advantage over anyone else.

True and possibly something that should be addressed. However Look at
it from the 2nd and 3rd place boat's perspective... ...The 3rd place
boat has come 3rd or last... why should they score well (as they do with
low points systems) for beating nobody...

But when it comes to large fleets that advantage goes to the people
down the fleet.
If you look closely at the table the first place boat with starters
of 21 and 22 have the
same points. With 23 starters it changes but for 24 and 25 starters
it is the same
points.

Purely a rounding issue. Make the maths work to more decimal points if
you want to fix it. Or just accept that 1st in a fleet of 21 and 22 is
pretty much the same first place.

Looking at this is it possible for the first boats points to be less
or equal to that of the
second place boats in very large fleets? Very possible.

Getting second place in a fleet of 25 may well be harder than getting
1st place in a fleet of 3 - trust me I've been that first in 3 but never
in 25... That is EXACTLY what CHIPS sets out to create.

Working out you can beat your fellow competitors was impossible.
Firstly you cannot predict how many people are going to race on any given race.
Secondly now that chips has a heavy wind factor it means that the weather can play
a part in the points ultimately the overall results.
The skill factor of sailing has been taken out and it leaves your
results in the hands of others.

Yes and no. It leaves the points in the hands of others - but turn up
sail and win and you stand a good chance...

While David wrote:

One friend of
mine had to consider not racing the last race of his series at the club
in order to protect his position. He needed 9 boats or less to be able
to race not caring wher he came. 9 boats turned up so he didn't race
meaning there wasn't 10 boats racing(would of done if he raced). meaning
he came first in his race series.

Happens with Low Points too unless you apply an olympic 'must sail in
last race' rule. People don't sail the last race if they've already won...

when its raining and people do not race people racing get penolized for
them not racing under the chips system. Compared to the low points
scoring which doesn't care how many people race

Thats the f****n point! CHIPs rewards people for winning in large
fleets. So conversely doesn't reward wining in small fleets.

I have proved its a flaw system by the fact that the second place boat
if enough boats sail can actually get more points than the first place
boat.

Secondly you are penalised by people not racing. say you sail all
season bar two races (take a holiday). You might find that even though
you beat certian people all season you can’t beat them over all dueto
the fact that the loads of people raced the two races you couldn’t

Thirdly you can not predict how to improve your position that all
depends on how may race.

if for example its raining outside and not many people race you are
being penalised for not many racing.

If you race at a club that has difficulty getting members to race, the
chips system is no good, it puts people off.

it is not used for the olympics cause it is flawed.

the example you gave is down to the discard system not the low points
scoring. if chips was sued you could of ended up with sailing like the
euro vision song contest. boats sailing races to make
other nations win.

at chipstead sailing club we have voted to go back to low points
scoring due to the failures of the chips system. As chipstead was the
first club to use the system and the logest to use it, that speaks
volumns for the failure oif the system.

quote from a club member

Also it is based on the number of boats you
beat and it is easy to beat the back markers but difficult to beat the
front of the fleet. Also the most important race of the Wednesday
series this year in terms of points was when there was a half mph
wind - encouraging a large turnout on a warm evening - and the result
was decided by who was best at illegal propulsion. It is interesting
that in the IYRU rules it suggests 2 methods of scoring a series - and
both are low points methods.There must be a good reason for this. I have been objecting to CHIPS to the people I
thought could most likely get rid of it for a couple of years now. I am
not sure if you were at the CSC AGM a few days back but it was
announced in the Sailing Secretary’s report that we would be reverting
to low points from the start of the summer season. Geoff , who has
championed CHIPS was there and seems to have finally accepted its
failure.

if you don't use the stupid chips system( made so geoff burrell could
get better results for himself) then you can have a front end to
sailwave that actulaly interacts with the low points scoring. What the
club needs to do is actually pay sailwave author to do this as to
interact with sailwave requires knowing the code of it to do this.

Oh dear - I am sorry guys but I did not want to get involved in a silly argument with this man who has always been emotionally and strongly opposed to CHIPS, and is still smarting from a Rule 42 disqualification (for which I was one of the protestors) that he tried to avoid by declining to attend the protest meeting. But he has now stated that I have finally accepted the failure of CHIPS which of course is totally untrue - so I guess I have no option other than to respond.

He is incorrect on this and also on most of his assertions about defects in the CHIPS system. Also he is not correct in stating that our club voted to go back to LPS. The scoring system to be used for the next season is usually decided at our club annually and each class can decide individually how it wishes to score its “points series”. It is true that several of the classes decided to revert to LPS but other classes, including our massive Laser fleet and indeed this guy’s own class (Comet) decided they preferred CHIPS and wished to continue using it for 2009. He is also unaware that there were other reasons why some classes decided to revert to LPS including an issue concerned with how the club wishes to support our computer system now that I have moved away from Chipstead, also because the Sailing Secretary at the time personally does not like CHIPS (i.e. club politics).

All scoring systems are arbitrary - there is no right or wrong - and emotion plays a big part. Quite a few people are unhappy that CHIPS (or any other HP system) gives different results from LPS and they then believe this to be a failure of the system. If it gave the same results then there would be no point in using a different system. There are times when conventional ISAF LPS works best but there are many events for which CHIPS has advantages, including the important one of fairness. The disadvantages are those of increased complexity and being able to work out how to beat your competitors, but the latter becomes easier to understand with experience of use. There is no virtue in using CHIPS in an event where the number of competitors is the same for all races in the series.

But for example in club races in which a series may span several weeks one has no idea how many competitors have entered the “event” until the last race and one is stuck with no sensible way of handling DNCs. We have also had a number of instances where ties have arisen and one has had to resort to the less than ideal ISAF tie-breaking rules to resolve them, in many cases leading to a “silly” winner. Ties have been a frequent occurrence for us in short series (e.g. 2 races to count out of 3) or long seriess over many weeks where, for example, only one third of the races need to count. CHIPS helps in those situations. The issue of fairness is of course a matter of judgement but on balance I feel CHIPS has the edge and gives appropriate scores for competitors in all positions down the fleet. There is a worth-while score advantage in beating others even if you are not winning the race. Others may judge things differently and that is absolutely fine.

I have always taken the view that it is best to ignore David’s heavily biased views and his faulty analysis about which I am entirely familiar.

Kind regards

Geoff

From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of David

···

-----Original Message-----
Sent: 13 December 2008 22:36
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: chipestaed siling clunb chips scoring

I have proved its a flaw system by the fact that the second place boat if enough boats sail can actually get more points than the first place boat.

Secondly you are penalised by people not racing. say you sail all season bar two races (take a holiday). You might find that even though you beat certian people all season you can’t beat them over all dueto the fact that the loads of people raced the two races you couldn’t

Thirdly you can not predict how to improve your position that all depends on how may race.

if for example its raining outside and not many people race you are being penalised for not many racing.

If you race at a club that has difficulty getting members to race, the chips system is no good, it puts people off.

it is not used for the olympics cause it is flawed.

the example you gave is down to the discard system not the low points scoring. if chips was sued you could of ended up with sailing like the euro vision song contest. boats sailing races to make

other nations win.

at chipstead sailing club we have voted to go back to low points scoring due to the failures of the chips system. As chipstead was the first club to use the system and the logest to use it, that speaks volumns for the failure oif the system.

quote from a club member

Also it is based on the number of boats you beat and it is easy to beat the back markers but difficult to beat the front of the fleet. Also the most important race of the Wednesday series this year in terms of points was when there was a half mph wind - encouraging a large turnout on a warm evening - and the result was decided by who was best at illegal propulsion. It is interesting that in the IYRU rules it suggests 2 methods of scoring a series - and both are low points methods.There must be a good reason for this. I have been objecting to CHIPS to the people I thought could most likely get rid of it for a couple of years now. I am not sure if you were at the CSC AGM a few days back but it was announced in the Sailing Secretary’s report that we would be reverting to low points from the start of the summer season. Geoff , who has championed CHIPS was there and seems to have finally accepted its failure.

David wrote:

I have proved its a flaw system by the fact that the second place boat
if enough boats sail can actually get more points than the first place boat.

BUT thats not a flaw - thats intentional. Does coming first in a race
of 3 boats mean you sailed better than someone who came second in a race
of 25 boats? No-one can answer is the honest answer but CHIPS is
designed to assume 2nd in 25 is better than 1st of 3. Its no more a
flaw than standard low points assuming coming last of 3 boats is the
same as 3rd of 25 boats.

Secondly you are penalised by people not racing. say you sail all
season bar two races (take a holiday). You might find that even though
you beat certian people all season you can't beat them over all dueto
the fact that the loads of people raced the two races you couldn't

Can the same not apply with low point where people beat you because they
sail on the very poorly attended races..?

Thirdly you can not predict how to improve your position that all
depends on how may race.

I just don't buy into using strategies like this anyway. Go out, sail,
win if you are good enough. Sod calculating out if I can keep Sailor X
in 25th position he can';t beat me type strategy.

if for example its raining outside and not many people race you are
being penalised for not many racing.

Totally agreed. On the other hand if you use standard low points and
only 3 boats race because there is no wind and it clashes with the main
summer holiday week and most people are away it hardly seems right that
you can gain a first place by beating 2 boats.

If you race at a club that has difficulty getting members to race, the
chips system is no good, it puts people off.

Except your sentence starting 'Secondly' above says the opposite...

I wonder who it puts off? People who would normally be at the front of
the pack or people who would normally be at the middle / back?

it is not used for the olympics cause it is flawed.

No - its not used for the olympics BECAUSE the olympics have an entire
fleet there. You never have an olympic race where only 3 boats race.
You wouldn't use it for something like the RS nationals where there are
maybe 9 races over 3 days - the numbers in each race will remain roughly
the same. CHIPS should only ever be needed when the numbers racing
fluctuate.

the example you gave is down to the discard system not the low points
scoring. if chips was sued you could of ended up with sailing like the
euro vision song contest. boats sailing races to make

other nations win.

That is a very good point. It relates to the person who you said could
only sail the last race if 9 boats came. What if a 10th had come?
Would he have had to race to guarantee his place? I don't have enough
info to work it out... if so then those he was racing against should
have been encouraging a 10th sailor (other than him) to start...

Also it is based on the number of boats you beat and it is easy to beat
the back markers but difficult to beat the front of the fleet.

I'm one of those back markers! But if its a race of 3 boats I'm still
going to get 3rd place...

I think the weakness of Chips is not on that side of the table.

Ranking on 6 regattas, 4 with 3 boats, 2 with 25 boats (not pure imagination; it happens when there is a club regatta every sunday, even when there is a national regatta organised by THE SAME CLUB on THE SAME DAY, I’ve seen it; only the 3 worse crews entered the club regatta)…

And even in those conditions, the crew of boat A NEVER finishes within time limit.(6 times, 52.6+52.6+52.6+52.6+6.3+6.3=223.0)

This boat is ranked far before ALL others having sailed the national regattas (1st in Races 5 and 6 just scores 99.7+99.7=199.4).

Phil

···

----- Original Message -----
From: “Calum Polwart” yahoo@wittongilbert.free-online.co.uk

To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com

Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2008 5:43 PM

Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: chipestaed siling clunb chips scoring

David wrote:

I have proved its a flaw system by the fact that the second place boat
if enough boats sail can actually get more points than the first place boat.

BUT thats not a flaw - thats intentional. Does coming first in a race
of 3 boats mean you sailed better than someone who came second in a race
of 25 boats? No-one can answer is the honest answer but CHIPS is
designed to assume 2nd in 25 is better than 1st of 3. Its no more a
flaw than standard low points assuming coming last of 3 boats is the
same as 3rd of 25 boats.

Secondly you are penalised by people not racing. say you sail all
season bar two races (take a holiday). You might find that even though
you beat certian people all season you can’t beat them over all dueto
the fact that the loads of people raced the two races you couldn’t

Can the same not apply with low point where people beat you because they
sail on the very poorly attended races…?

Thirdly you can not predict how to improve your position that all
depends on how may race.

I just don’t buy into using strategies like this anyway. Go out, sail,
win if you are good enough. Sod calculating out if I can keep Sailor X
in 25th position he can’;t beat me type strategy.

if for example its raining outside and not many people race you are
being penalised for not many racing.

Totally agreed. On the other hand if you use standard low points and
only 3 boats race because there is no wind and it clashes with the main
summer holiday week and most people are away it hardly seems right that
you can gain a first place by beating 2 boats.

If you race at a club that has difficulty getting members to race, the
chips system is no good, it puts people off.

Except your sentence starting ‘Secondly’ above says the opposite…

I wonder who it puts off? People who would normally be at the front of
the pack or people who would normally be at the middle / back?

it is not used for the olympics cause it is flawed.

No - its not used for the olympics BECAUSE the olympics have an entire
fleet there. You never have an olympic race where only 3 boats race.
You wouldn’t use it for something like the RS nationals where there are
maybe 9 races over 3 days - the numbers in each race will remain roughly
the same. CHIPS should only ever be needed when the numbers racing
fluctuate.

the example you gave is down to the discard system not the low points
scoring. if chips was sued you could of ended up with sailing like the
euro vision song contest. boats sailing races to make

other nations win.

That is a very good point. It relates to the person who you said could
only sail the last race if 9 boats came. What if a 10th had come?
Would he have had to race to guarantee his place? I don’t have enough
info to work it out… if so then those he was racing against should
have been encouraging a 10th sailor (other than him) to start…

Also it is based on the number of boats you beat and it is easy to beat
the back markers but difficult to beat the front of the fleet.

I’m one of those back markers! But if its a race of 3 boats I’m still
going to get 3rd place…


-!- http://www.yachtsandyachting.com/ -!- http://www.sailing.org/ -!- http://www.sailwave.com/ -!- Latest versions of sailwave can be downloaded from the ‘files’ section http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/ ~ On-Line Sailwave help…http://sailwave.com/help/HTML ~ Mark Thompson’s Sailwave User manual is available from the files section http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sailwave/files/Sailwave_ABYC_User_Guide_08-24-2008.pdf ~ Convert to daily digest of emails send blank email to sailwave-digest@yahoogroups.com ~ To unsubscribe from the SUG please send blank email to sailwave-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com Yahoo! Groups Links

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Philippe DE TROY wrote:

I think the weakness of Chips is not on that side of the table.

Ranking on 6 regattas, 4 with 3 boats, 2 with 25 boats (not pure
imagination; it happens when there is a club regatta every sunday, even
when there is a national regatta organised by THE SAME CLUB on THE SAME
DAY, I've seen it; only the 3 worse crews entered the club regatta)...
And even in those conditions, the crew of boat A NEVER finishes within
time limit.(6 times, 52.6+52.6+52.6+52.6+6.3+6.3=223.0)
This boat is ranked far before ALL others having sailed the national
regattas (1st in Races 5 and 6 just scores 99.7+99.7=199.4).

Phil

The fundamental problem is not the points system - its allowing people
in the series who don't complete enough races...!

2 Races out of 6! On a Low Points system you'd surely have a 3 or 4 of
6 races to count (i.e. discard 2 or 3 races).

OK so someone who DNFs maybe shouldn't get overly credited for starting.
But there is a point to be made here - on one hand David is saying
CHIPS discourages people from sailing, on the other hand we are clearly
saying it rewards people for coming out and making the effort to start.

If you include discards in high points then 4 of 6 races gives the first
boat 210.4 points (still beats the other boat - but he hadn't qualified
for the series) Had the other boat taken part in any of the other races
even if they DNFd they'd have had more points. 3 of 6 races 157.8 (the
other example beats them but didn't qualify for the series, had they
taken part in any other race they'd qualify and so beat him) and 2 of 6
- 105.2 (the other boat qualifies AND beats him)

Am I missing something - why you shouldn't include discards in a high
points system?

Clearly if the two 25 boat races were at the start of the season and you
only needed 2 of 6 to qualify the positions are set for the season from
the start...

Excuse my ignorance but what is the CHIPS system. it all sounds a bit fishy to me?

Regards,
Geoff

···

From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Burrell
Sent: 14 December 2008 11:50
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: chipestaed siling clunb chips scoring

Oh dear - I am sorry guys but I did not want to get involved in a silly argument with this man who has always been emotionally and strongly opposed to CHIPS, and is still smarting from a Rule 42 disqualification (for which I was one of the protestors) that he tried to avoid by declining to attend the protest meeting. But he has now stated that I have finally accepted the failure of CHIPS which of course is totally untrue - so I guess I have no option other than to respond.

He is incorrect on this and also on most of his assertions about defects in the CHIPS system. Also he is not correct in stating that our club voted to go back to LPS. The scoring system to be used for the next season is usually decided at our club annually and each class can decide individually how it wishes to score its “points series”. It is true that several of the classes decided to revert to LPS but other classes, including our massive Laser fleet and indeed this guy’s own class (Comet) decided they preferred CHIPS and wished to continue using it for 2009. He is also unaware that there were other reasons why some classes decided to revert to LPS including an issue concerned with how the club wishes to support our computer system now that I have moved away from Chipstead, also because the Sailing Secretary at the time personally does not like CHIPS (i.e. club politics).

All scoring systems are arbitrary - there is no right or wrong - and emotion plays a big part. Quite a few people are unhappy that CHIPS (or any other HP system) gives different results from LPS and they then believe this to be a failure of the system. If it gave the same results then there would be no point in using a different system. There are times when conventional ISAF LPS works best but there are many events for which CHIPS has advantages, including the important one of fairness. The disadvantages are those of increased complexity and being able to work out how to beat your competitors, but the latter becomes easier to understand with experience of use. There is no virtue in using CHIPS in an event where the number of competitors is the same for all races in the series.

But for example in club races in which a series may span several weeks one has no idea how many competitors have entered the “event” until the last race and one is stuck with no sensible way of handling DNCs. We have also had a number of instances where ties have arisen and one has had to resort to the less than ideal ISAF tie-breaking rules to resolve them, in many cases leading to a “silly” winner. Ties have been a frequent occurrence for us in short series (e.g. 2 races to count out of 3) or long seriess over many weeks where, for example, only one third of the races need to count. CHIPS helps in those situations. The issue of fairness is of course a matter of judgement but on balance I feel CHIPS has the edge and gives appropriate scores for competitors in all positions down the fleet. There is a worth-while score advantage in beating others even if you are not winning the race. Others may judge things differently and that is absolutely fine.

I have always taken the view that it is best to ignore David’s heavily biased views and his faulty analysis about which I am entirely familiar.

Kind regards

Geoff

-----Original Message-----
From:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of David
Sent: 13 December 2008 22:36
To:
sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: chipestaed siling clunb chips scoring

I have proved its a flaw system by the fact that the second place boat if enough boats sail can actually get more points than the first place boat.

Secondly you are penalised by people not racing. say you sail all season bar two races (take a holiday). You might find that even though you beat certian people all season you can’t beat them over all dueto the fact that the loads of people raced the two races you couldn’t

Thirdly you can not predict how to improve your position that all depends on how may race.

if for example its raining outside and not many people race you are being penalised for not many racing.

If you race at a club that has difficulty getting members to race, the chips system is no good, it puts people off.

it is not used for the olympics cause it is flawed.

the example you gave is down to the discard system not the low points scoring. if chips was sued you could of ended up with sailing like the euro vision song contest. boats sailing races to make

other nations win.

at chipstead sailing club we have voted to go back to low points scoring due to the failures of the chips system. As chipstead was the first club to use the system and the logest to use it, that speaks volumns for the failure oif the system.

quote from a club member

Also it is based on the number of boats you beat and it is easy to beat the back markers but difficult to beat the front of the fleet. Also the most important race of the Wednesday series this year in terms of points was when there was a half mph wind - encouraging a large turnout on a warm evening - and the result was decided by who was best at illegal propulsion. It is interesting that in the IYRU rules it suggests 2 methods of scoring a series - and both are low points methods.There must be a good reason for this. I have been objecting to CHIPS to the people I thought could most likely get rid of it for a couple of years now. I am not sure if you were at the CSC AGM a few days back but it was announced in the Sailing Secretary’s report that we would be reverting to low points from the start of the summer season. Geoff , who has championed CHIPS was there and seems to have finally accepted its failure.

And do I care? This is supposed to be a forum about using Sailwave, not the merits of various scoring systems.

cheers
Tony

···

At 10:53 15/12/2008, Geoff Town wrote:

Excuse my ignorance but what is the CHIPS system. it all sounds a bit fishy to me?

Regards,
Geoff

----------
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Geoff Burrell
Sent: 14 December 2008 11:50
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [sailwave] Re: chipestaed siling clunb chips scoring

Oh dear - I am sorry guys but I did not want to get involved in a silly argument with this man who has always been emotionally and strongly opposed to CHIPS, and is still smarting from a Rule 42 disqualification (for which I was one of the protestors) that he tried to avoid by declining to attend the protest meeting. But he has now stated that I have finally accepted the failure of CHIPS which of course is totally untrue - so I guess I have no option other than to respond.
He is incorrect on this and also on most of his assertions about defects in the CHIPS system. Also he is not correct in stating that our club voted to go back to LPS. The scoring system to be used for the next season is usually decided at our club annually and each class can decide individually how it wishes to score its "points series". It is true that several of the classes decided to revert to LPS but other classes, including our massive Laser fleet and indeed this guy's own class (Comet) decided they preferred CHIPS and wished to continue using it for 2009. He is also unaware that there were other reasons why some classes decided to revert to LPS including an issue concerned with how the club wishes to support our computer system now that I have moved away from Chipstead, also because the Sailing Secretary at the time personally does not like CHIPS (i.e. club politics).
All scoring systems are arbitrary - there is no right or wrong - and emotion plays a big part. Quite a few people are unhappy that CHIPS (or any other HP system) gives different results from LPS and they then believe this to be a failure of the system. If it gave the same results then there would be no point in using a different system. There are times when conventional ISAF LPS works best but there are many events for which CHIPS has advantages, including the important one of fairness. The disadvantages are those of increased complexity and being able to work out how to beat your competitors, but the latter becomes easier to understand with experience of use. There is no virtue in using CHIPS in an event where the number of competitors is the same for all races in the series.
But for example in club races in which a series may span several weeks one has no idea how many competitors have entered the "event" until the last race and one is stuck with no sensible way of handling DNCs. We have also had a number of instances where ties have arisen and one has had to resort to the less than ideal ISAF tie-breaking rules to resolve them, in many cases leading to a "silly" winner. Ties have been a frequent occurrence for us in short series (e.g. 2 races to count out of 3) or long seriess over many weeks where, for example, only one third of the races need to count. CHIPS helps in those situations. The issue of fairness is of course a matter of judgement but on balance I feel CHIPS has the edge and gives appropriate scores for competitors in all positions down the fleet. There is a worth-while score advantage in beating others even if you are not winning the race. Others may judge things differently and that is absolutely fine.
I have always taken the view that it is best to ignore David's heavily biased views and his faulty analysis about which I am entirely familiar.
Kind regards
Geoff

-----Original Message-----
From: sailwave@yahoogroups.com [mailto:sailwave@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of David
Sent: 13 December 2008 22:36
To: sailwave@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [sailwave] Re: chipestaed siling clunb chips scoring

I have proved its a flaw system by the fact that the second place boat if enough boats sail can actually get more points than the first place boat.

Secondly you are penalised by people not racing. say you sail all season bar two races (take a holiday). You might find that even though you beat certian people all season you can't beat them over all dueto the fact that the loads of people raced the two races you couldn't

Thirdly you can not predict how to improve your position that all depends on how may race.

if for example its raining outside and not many people race you are being penalised for not many racing.

If you race at a club that has difficulty getting members to race, the chips system is no good, it puts people off.

it is not used for the olympics cause it is flawed.

the example you gave is down to the discard system not the low points scoring. if chips was sued you could of ended up with sailing like the euro vision song contest. boats sailing races to make
other nations win.

at chipstead sailing club we have voted to go back to low points scoring due to the failures of the chips system. As chipstead was the first club to use the system and the logest to use it, that speaks volumns for the failure oif the system.

quote from a club member

Also it is based on the number of boats you beat and it is easy to beat the back markers but difficult to beat the front of the fleet. Also the most important race of the Wednesday series this year in terms of points was when there was a half mph wind - encouraging a large turnout on a warm evening - and the result was decided by who was best at illegal propulsion. It is interesting that in the IYRU rules it suggests 2 methods of scoring a series - and both are low points methods.There must be a good reason for this. I have been objecting to CHIPS to the people I thought could most likely get rid of it for a couple of years now. I am not sure if you were at the CSC AGM a few days back but it was announced in the Sailing Secretary's report that we would be reverting to low points from the start of the summer season. Geoff , who has championed CHIPS was there and seems to have finally accepted its failure.